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Universal Health Care

AnonymousUserAAnonymousUser Posts: 49,671
edited 06/11/2012 - 8:36 AM in Health Insurance Issues
Is this what Staker is having to deal with? What the president is trying to get passed here in the states?

I for one do not see how this health care system could really work for any of us. Waiting months to be seen for something so painful...

Just my opinion but that would really make those of us in constant pain really suffer more don't you think?



  • That would be an understatement.

    Welcome to the mob.
  • If Universal Health Care is passed here in the states, it will be a disaster...just my opinion. I am very happy with my BC/BS insurance and do not want to change. I don't believe, for one minute, most of what is being said. If we are able to keep our own private insurace, it will cost us so much more and we will not get the same quality care we are getting now. Just look at other countries that have universal health care. A lot of those people come here for treatment they can't get in their own country. It's wonderful to know you can get in to see a doctor in just a couple of days when you need to. I've never had a problem with my health care.
  • it were placed/discussed in the INSURANCE forum?

  • Just curious as I really do not understand why he would want to continue with this when clearly nobody wants it. Shouldnt he just back down and start over with this. Let all the people vote as to what should be in it and what should not. I dont know about the cost part of insurance right now or even if this would have an affect on my insurance as we are already governmentally insured through the military. Im only hoping that he changes his mind about this whole situation. I have family in another state and they have no insurance at all. When this first started they hoped it would help them but from what i can tell it is only going to cost my mother extreme amounts of money if she doesnt take it and doesnt he think that if she could pay for something she would. Duh hello!!! And besides it wont do her any good because they arent going to treat the elderly anyway. We should come up with a plan something that can be sent to him so he knows our situations and our families. Whether it be constant emails or petitions or ??? I dont know something.
  • I have to agree with Dave. That is an understatement.

    There are pros and cons to the socialist medical system used in Europe. We see the Europeans on here, mostly English, telling how the system works. The part we see most is how slow their system moves. Taking 6 months to a year just to get an MRI. Things like that. They do have some good to their system. Everyone gets medical care. The cost is high taxes and an overwhelmed system.

    The problem here is that the democrats, read more government control is good, want to do this. As usual they want to take even more money out of the system that they don't actually have. Then play tax the rich, and mostly the middle class, to foot the bills. If you're poor this system sounds wonderful. FREE medical care. Well it isn't FREE. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

    If you already have private health care and you are happy with it. Then you can keep it. However, you will pay increased taxes anyway. To help foot the bill for the national health care you don't want. This will give employers who have private health care the opportunity to start dumping it. Why not? Employees can use the national system. Helps keep their costs lower. They have no incentive to keep private health care. After a while they will unload it and we'll have socialist medicine just like Europe. At best we won't screw it up too much and make it much worse than their system.

    I'll keep private health care thanks. We have an excellent plan where I work. The company not only has that but profit sharing, good pay, and other benefits. And the owner still gets to be rich. Apparently you can run a business in this country, make good money, and take care of your employees. Go figure...
  • if only a plan could give poor people some coverage without affecting our basic system...
  • something needs to be done. Too many people without health insurance, improper use of the ER for basic medical care, hospital bills not being paid, bankruptcies due to medical expenses, companies continually changing the health plans they provide to keep costs level, insurance paying only 70% of your bill, etc. etc.

    Please check information on factsaboutreform.org.

    Best wishes to you all,

  • Please keep in mind that a "salesman" will set up promotions and sales in order to peddle whatever it is that he is selling. Just because a website says "these are the facts", doesn't mean that they truly are "the facts". Or, they may only be a small picture, being used to paint a grander landscape to sell something that isn't necessarily the "true picture".

    When proof of citizenship is not required to obtain health care, then that opens the doors for an even gloomier picture. Preventative Health is a great concept, but when it's done on the younger healthier generations at the expense of continued care for the aging generations ...

    Graham has a great point, that employers will opt out of carrying insurance for their employees to reduce costs, and that then forces the employees into the government controlled system.

    So the concept of having the ability to choose, is misleading.


  • When someone tells you "here are the facts" and "the truth". Keep in mind in most cases it is their truth. Not necessarily the whole truth. Like "C" said, watch out for the salesman and their carefully painted picture.

    That website, factsaboutreform.org, is sponsored by the Health Care industry. Pharmaceuticals and Insurance companies. Please. These are companies with the biggest lobbyists on Capital Hill. They twist and manipulate the system worse than any other companies. They have the money and clout to do it. I wouldn't be taking their word for "the truth".

    I'm all about Capitalism and Free Enterprise. Totally against Socialism and their ideals. But we have a serious issue in Health Care. The Pharmaceutical and Insurance companies are not your friends and they are not going to help you. They don't want a Government controlled system anymore than I do. When it comes to that they will make sure they are controlling the Government. Under Free Enterprise they get to charge anything they want for your medicine and insurance. Why would they want a regulated and fair system? Something even the poor can afford? They only care about the poor if their is a government program behind them to pay their bills.

    Don't take "my truth" either. It's just 1 more opinion. Do your homework. Use your brain and think for yourself. Then do something about it. Write your congressman, senator, governor, etc.. Raise your voice. Whatever you do, don't just sit back and let Obama pick your answer for you....
  • I guess there has to be pro's and con's to everything and no nothing is free never has been there is always a tag hanging somewhere even if it isnt seen at first. I need more information about this whole situation on health care. It all seems to run in one big circle for me.

    I can only wonder why the people dont just vote on this. Either we want it or we dont. Seems as though there is only one mistake after another being made with this reform no matter which way it goes. For us to not be allowed to vote can only mean many problems will arise from this situation.

    Yes i would love for my mother to have insurance but do i want her to have to wait 6 mos or longer to get in no way she's an elderly person this could really cause long term problems for her. I kind of agree with some of the other opinions i have read on the internet. If this health system is as good as they say then let all of congress, our president, and any other high ranking officials who have insurance paid for with our tax money have to utilize this as their health care also.

    Just my opinion and I definately dont want to offend anyone so please do not take it that way!
  • There is without a doubt a need for some change on the health care system. I don't think you will find anyone who disagrees on those facts. I don't want to see people run out of health insurance or not get medical help, cause they have no insurance or they have lost a job and financial strapped.

    With that being said as someone who uses government controlled insurance it isn't pretty by any means. When I say government controlled, taking care of my parents in the medicare system and myself in the work comp world. Yes work comp is legislated health care, albeit coming from a insurance company, it is still legislated. This past week I once again ran into yet another medicare flaw. My mother has been very ill and is on medicare. The rehab facility asked me where she would be going after there, to a nursing home, or to her home. I asked why, and was told that medicare needs to know. If she is going home they need to do more therapy, if she is going to a nursing home it is to be less therapy. Mind you medicare does not and never has paid for nursing homes. The statistics are people don't live long in a nursing home so why spend that money. Now that is just a example of what we go up against in medicare(government health care). In my state work comp is such, that we are not entitled to choose the doctors treating us. My surgeon for all 5 of my spine surgeries was chosen for me. No where in the process do I have a voice. The time allotted with the surgeon for appointments was pre-approved up front. Any other information I need I am to get from the case manager.

    Now myself, I have been deemed one of those 10 million Americans uninsurable, cause I can't cross the state lines for medical insurance, I can't see if someone will insure me. All states have a policy to insure the uninsurable provided they kept there policies in effect and lost insurance for the reason of being uninsurable. Great I can have insurance. Well yes and no. The insurance is basically for catastrophic injuries. Not to mention the prices are through the ceiling and couldn't afford to use it if I needed it. But it is state insurance I am paying for it. The very insurance company I had to use to tell me wether I can have insurance or not is the same insurance company running those programs and paying the claims. So no matter how you look at it they had a vested interest in denying my coverage. Which may I add they were the carrier I had that dropped me as well. They have no competition. Mind you what is keeping me from getting insurance is my work injury and my private has never paid any money on it. In the event work comp would stop paying for my treatment my private would be obligated to pay the claim and take it up in court for repayment.

    I like most want the free markets to work and let them run. They will regulate themselves by the very nature of how competition works. The best example I can think of this is the tele-communications industry and airlines. Once government deregulated them look what happened. How many people can you think of that don't have a cell phone. Cell phones are very affordable now as there is just so much competition. Same went with the airlines, once deregulated it became more affordable to travel. If the government takes over there will be a monopoly, which by the way is against the current laws. When speaking of health it is 17% of a gross national product. AS the majority of the population ages that number is only going to rise. It is one of the few industries that hasn't been bailed out in the stimulus. I found it interesting that they said it wouldn't cost us tax payers any money at all and they would pay for it in the waste. If a individual had that much waste in their personal fiances, we would tell them they are irresponsible. I say get the money from the waste and show me the money first. I think we as Americans should be more upset when they openly admitted they are wasting that much of our money. They say there is 20 billion in medicare fraud and medicaid they have no idea. I say clean that mess up and get those people who are uninsured some health care.

    I have been reading the bills themselves and drawing my own conclusions and everyone else should read them for yourselves make your own opinions. Don't read all the websites as you can find any data to support any conclusion you want. What concerns me most is the bills are so complicated it will take the lawyers decades to figure them out. My fear is the litigation will be huge and once again the lawyers are out making more money. Whatever side of the aisle or position you take let your voice be heard. Write your congressmen and women and the senators. If your not sure how to contact them google will lead directly to them. So in the end however the ball lands you did your part. I can't tell anyone what is best for their situation but as someone who had great employer sponsored health care and is now uninsurable I can see both sides of the argument. I by no means want to see someone who has good insurance loose it on on the likes of myself. I really think since every American has a stake in this bill, that it should be debated on national TV the same as a presidential debate. Let the elected officials debate it in front of the very people who put them there to solve the issues. Ok that is my 2 cents of knowledge on the bill and it isn't much, as it is so in depth.
  • I have aging parents on medicare myself and I see how well the government works with that.
  • Very nicely said.

    Refugee , you asked
    I can only wonder why the people dont just vote on this.
    That is really something to watch. As Tammy pointed out, this "reform package" is so huge and complex, there's no way to go through it in a couple of days and be able to clearly understand what is being voted on. There are even areas where references are obsolete and not even pertinent to what they are attached to.

    I would love to see it where everyone was eligible for healthcare, but it's a pipe dream. To me it is like filling up the gas tanks on 2000 cars only half full knowing they can't ever make it to their destination before running out of gas. So the 2000 lose in the end. However take 1000 and fill them all the way, or allow them to chose to fill up when things get low, and now the 1000 are making it to their destination.

    We need to fix what's broke first, before trying to reinvent the wheel.

  • I live here in Canada. For those times when I need to get to ER, it is there and I don't have to worry about the cost coming out of my pocket. That to me woul dbe worthwhile to those of you in the USA not on some type of system.

    Up here does not really work well for those like me- who has a chronic illness and needs more attention. It is not easy to find a Dr that knows how to treat this and forget about looking for a new one, there is a 5,000 person list - that is for the next available Dr. So that's not happening. For me and I have tried, I am stuck with the care I get, and the meds that I am on, but for me - its better than nothing and so far- I am starting to mend and beginning to heal.

    For those in your country that have nothing, that is what I would look towards fixing! I dont think this was meant to fix everything that is wrong with your system, just make it better for those who have nothing at present.

    Peace -Cheers - David
  • I am worried about the cost handed down to my children and grandchildren. Also the effect it will have on the ones already insured. I guess he just isnt explaining everything to everyone well enough. I know we can read it but i probably wouldnt understand half the wording.

    I would love for my family to have insurance and not have to worry about paying that would be great. Especially for my mother and sister but at what cost to us and the next generation.

    Im sure this plan could be reworked in some other way like us voting on what goes in it and what does not. At least people would feel like they helped and had a say instead of just being told whats going to happen. One thing I know is people do not like being talked down to and told how its going to be without giving them a couple choices and this is where the president is making his mistake. This plan needs to be put out there for everyone to read and decide on. (I would like a dummies manual if possible)!! I couldnt read it without a dictionary right now.

  • Tamtam,

    You are mixing up your Workers Comp case and issues with private insurance. Not the same issues.

    I'm not sure that anything in the new system Obama wants even touches Workers Comp. Also last I checked every insurance company that insures in a state. Has to assume some portion of the risk pool. So they are stuck with you even though they don't want to be. Like you said though. They will make it painful and they are for all practical purposes monopolising the system.

    The National Healthcare system has to do with private insurance vs government sponsored medical insurance. This is not Workers Comp. I hope they are not entertaining running this thing based on how Workers Comp works. They might treat it like Medicare though. It would really be similar. Like that system or not it is one they know. Either way that system will kill private health care for anything but the obscenely rich. There will always be special companies out there to cater to the very rich.

    I'm all for voting for the politicians being mandated by law to use the exact system they vote in for everyone else. That would change their attitude about it.

    As for Medicare/Medicaid. We have been dealing with this with my mom for years. Yeah it can be a paper shuffling nightmare. She can't see any doctor she wants. But she has good doctors and they happen to be Medicare approved. It can be a pain. Want to make it even more fun. Get the extended coverage for medications. Then figure out, based on her RXs, which one has the best cost and gap coverage. All in all for "free" coverage I can't complain about the support she has gotten from Medicare/Medicaid.
  • dilaurodilauro ConnecticutPosts: 9,865
    My wife and I were in the hot tub tonight and she was reading an article about a famous Hospital in New Orleans and actions taken during the Katrina disaster.

    The hospital officials were 'put on the hot seat' because of their actions. The officials made it clear that their decision was to make attempts to save those that have the best chances in living a long term.

    Some that they denied were not only the DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) but others, elderly ,etc. The doctor team focused in on those patients thta had the best chances of living.

    Well those doctors and officials received Holy Hell for their decision. Today many years later, I believe they did the right thing and I would want those doctors and officials at any hospital that was facing the same situation.

    We have a good health care system in America, so there are problems and many are being looked at right now. But I know that many other countries would have come to the same decision that the New Orleans doctors and staff came up with. Here in the states, people frown at those type of decisions, those familiar with other country health systems would have applauded those decisions.

    Something we should always think about...
    Ron DiLauro Spine-Health System Administrator
    I am not a medical professional. I comment on personal experiences
    You can email me at: rdilauro@veritashealth.com
  • Ron,
    You are absolutely correct I applaud the doctors involved in Katrina. There is without a doubt there was some very critical choice to be made during that time. I for one am happy it just wasn't me in those situations.

    Graham, I am not sure how your mom is getting by free on medicare as my parents pay the premiums. Medicaid is a whole different ball game. Medicaid is for low income and people without financial means. Medicare A works based on the number of credits you have and part B is a flat $98.20 per month. The part D was added to medicare members and by the governments own measures was a failure by in large. We don't have part D as both my parents have supplemental policies through boeing which serve as part D and more. Medicare is a federal government program were medicaid is a state program. The reason they can't find the true numbers of fraud in medicaid, as it is up to individual state reporting.

    I was using my work comp as a example of legislated insurance. NO it is not the bills that are being worked on. However you look at it, it is government legislated health care, same as medicare. My examples were to show what can happen when government gets involved in legislating health care. Not to say that they are related in anyway. However the government system will get my state program and it will get medicare without a doubt, that has been made clear.

    Now as far as my parents seeing doctors we have no issues since they run medicare and a private supplemental that picks up after the deductibles. However medicare has some very strict guidelines of what it will cover. For example, durable medical equipment. My concerns and examples is a national health care will lead to these same issues.

    Medicare is a large reason driving this bill. As the population ages and members increase and the number paying in decreases there are huge short falls. Part of the money they will be using is the 20 billion they know of in fraud in the medicare system. The only way to stop the fraud is to over haul it. Not to mention Part D of that system doesn't work by in large, at the governments own admittance. Now medicaid is in that bill as well. Medicaid is the insurance not all doctors will take. Since it is a state program the federal government wants it into a federal program and out of the hands of the states. Albeit part of the funding for those programs comes from federal grants or tax payer money. Medicaid also serves for all of those who have never worked and don't qualify for the insurance. With that being said you still have people who have never worked and don't qualify for either medicare or medicaid but then there financial resources are of such they have no need. However, they do still qualify under the state mandated insurance programs.

    But all in all my point is what happens when government legislates health care and takes it out of the free market place. Not to mention the short fall of doctors this may cause by insuring another 50 million.
  • Tamtam,

    Yeah I was kidding about free. Medicare is not free. The price is very reasonable in my opinion. That is all subjective based on your income though. Mom's retirement insurance money used to cover her Medicare. Now it covers maybe half. I pay the balance. She pays the same your parents do, ~$100/month. Like I said though, I don't have complaints about her care. She gets appointments quickly when she is hurt. She has good doctors. Medicare covers most things. She went in the hospital a couple of years ago and needed stints in her heart. Emergency surgery. Heart attack. Everything was taken care of. The excess bills were pretty much waved. She used have to Blue Cross added on but it got too expensive and was dropped. That was supposed to cover what Medicare didn't cover. It wasn't very good.

    Medicaid. I know some people who are on and have used Medicaid. That would be the system for the poor. It's very limited. That makes sense since it requires lots of funding out of our tax money. The people using it pay nothing and do nothing to help pay back in some way.

    Medicare has abuse in the billions of dollars. They are not the only ones. Workers Comp is heavily abused. In some states it is completely out of hand. Welfare is another system with good intentions that is also abused. If we could capture the $$$ in abuse from these systems it would help. Wouldn't be nearly enough to cover a National Health Plan.

    So how are we going to pay for this? You pay a percent based on your income? Once again those with pay for those without. Help the poor and all that. I'm afraid I disagree completely with this. The Welfare system shows why this doesn't work. People who get free handouts are not motivated to give back. Make them work for and earn it. No free Welfare or Health Care. You earn it. One way or another.

    For everyone else who does work and contribute. We get health care, medical systems, pharmaceuticals, hospitals under control. Unfortunately we have to put aside Free Enterprise for this. Government regulated industries. You can have National Health Care with fixed costs. Those industries can still profit. They just can't profiteer like they do today.

  • We have basic healthcare here free but you pay once a year $600. depending on your income at tax time. If employed you have Insurance and semi-private hospital room coverage as well as insurance to pay for eye exams and many other services like physio, chiro, massage etc. as added benefits with a Drs prescription. People are seen according to their acuity and not if they have better insurance. There's a private clinic for well to do people that you get instant MRI's and tests right away for extra costs. I find shopping around by calling different hospitals to book an MRI or leg dopplers and take whoever provides the service first. As for seeing Specialists it depends on your Primary Dr. and his/her connections to get you in sooner. It would be good if they have basic fee for service Drs appointments they charge to Government to cover everyone regardless of who you are in the community. Everyone in ER has to wait their turn according to how ill they are and after the hospital sends you a letter if you want to donate. My Mother pays $850. for insurance to cover her while in Florida for 4 months during the winter and that's a pretty good price. I can't imagine paying out of pocket while being disabled and no job. When I was making minimum wage years ago it was difficult to have to pay out of pocket for dental benefits and glasses/contacts. I think there should be paid for dental benefits by the Government now that would be a bonus for all of us. Charry
    DDD of lumbar spine with sciatica to left hip,leg and foot. L4-L5 posterior disc bulge with prominent facets, L5-S1 prominent facets with a posterior osteocartilaginous bar. Mild bilateral foraminal narrowing c-spine c4-c7 RN
  • charry said:
    I think there should be paid for dental benefits by the Government now that would be a bonus for all of us. Charry
    Charry this is a big part of the failing logic. Government "paid for" benefits. Doesn't matter if you are talking medical, dental, vision. The government is not paying for you benefits and never will. The government is not a profit making business. All it does is collect money and spend it.

    The rest of the tax payers are paying for your government/free health care. That is wrong. That's why Europe has a 50%+ income tax rate. I'm not sure about Canada. But no one is getting anything free. Some other tax payer is paying it. Why?

    Sure the poor are getting it free. Ask any poor person if they want government health care. They are all for it. It's FREE. They can't afford private health care. I disagree with paying taxes for their health care and they do nothing in return. Responsibility and accountability have gone out the window in the country. Everyone wants a free ride. What ever happened to work for and earn things?

  • I agree that dental should be included in insurance benefits. Yours definately isnt free as you stated above you pay at tax time depending on your income. My only hope is that they will come up with a better plan than they have now. If it passes here in the states there will be alot of upset people. We have all seen what happens with this in other countries. Their systems are not that great they wait for long periods of time to see specialists and get mri's and other important tests. There has to be a better solution out there.

    I dont mind paying taxes for insurance to help the needy. My mother is one that needs some sort of insurance and soon. I think where the problem lies is the people getting insurance for free and are able to work. Here where i live you cannot just walk in and get insurance without agreeing to do so many hours of training per week then find employment or already have a job. There isnt a free handout here unless it is for the children who are not able to work and they can get it until age 19 but like i said proof of income or in training. This includes dental and vision for them. I am very appreciative for this insurance because my daughter is insured through us but not my grandson our insurance company refused him and there's no way she can afford to pay for him a private insurance plan. She and her husband work 40 hours a week but this is a min wage paying positions. With rent and other bills and extra things for the baby they almost always run short of cash. He was a premie and requires a lot of different things not covered through the insurance also so this is out of pocket expenses for them to.

    I think if they would go through all the applicants on free insurance and do investigatins they would end up taking many off the program. But i definately wouldnt want them to do that to the children they are our future unless they prove the parents can afford it. I do agree that there are a lot of people who take advantage of the system, but the system allows them to with no follow ups and not investigating their claims.
  • with great interest!
    I lived in the US for over 30 years, Canada for 2 years (recently), and have now lived in the UK for 6 years so I think I have a well rounded view to Healthcare...plus I am over 50 so have had my share of health problems over the years.

    First off, let me address this misconception of taxation in Europe. The UK does pay some pretty steep taxes but nothing like 50% for everyone!
    I copied and pasted this from the HM Revenue site.

    UK tax rates:

    2008-09 2009-10
    Starting rate for savings: 10%* £0-£2,320 £0-£2,440
    Basic rate: 20% £0-£34,80 £0-£37,400
    Higher rate: 40% Over £34,800 Over £37,400

    Canadian tax rates:

    15% on the first $40,726 of taxable income, +
    22% on the next $40,726 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $40,726 and $81,452), +
    26% on the next $44,812 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $81,452 and $126,264), +
    29% of taxable income over $126,264.

    So neither country's population pays exhorbitant taxes and what you get for your tax money far outweighs any benefits I EVER got in the US!

    Both the UK and Canada still have private healthcare for those who want or can afford it and it is offered as a perk at many businesses.

    The best thing about public healthcare is that no one is ever turned away because they have a pre-existing condition or cannot afford to pay a doctor.
    People with severe conditions aren't asked to pay $1000's of $s out of pocket for services either.

    A woman I knew who lived in Ohio had kidney failure. She had to divorce her husband of 30 years to get a new kidney because they wanted $100,000 cash before they would even put her on the waiting list and they couldn't afford it and she had insurance!! So she divorced him and went on welfare and was put on the list and it took her 2 years to get her kidney. I think that is outrageous!

    So, please keep an open mind about public health care. It isn't perfect by any means but we still have the right to choose our doctors and I have had excellent care since I've lived in the UK. Even got my digital hearing aids for free and I just go to the doctors office and pick up batteries for them whenever I run out...at no charge! Plus all prescriptions are only £7.10, no matter what they are and when you turn 60 they are free! If you live in Wales or Scotland they are free to everyone there regardless of age.

  • Thanks to EDITED and others in the govt. of illinois, i recieve something like our public option...i pay 3% co pays each dr. visit...and pay 3$ on non generic meds...I havent had to wait one bit! Been on it for 5+ years...they are whos helping fix my back...even tho the surgery failed and im in constant pain...nothing i could complain to the insurance on! Whe i could work...i put my money into it...so i dont feel bad getting the help...i do not get ANY other kind of govt. support. hope this helps some see the light? NEVER EVER had to wait...worst problem is doctors not wanting to take insurance because it doesnt pay them enough! Thank god i got a great Dr.

    Post edited for violation of SH standards by Authority Member haglandc
  • I get to see my doctors whenever I want to! never had to wait...no longer than usual. Keeping your insurance is nice if you like it...but some of us dont....or in no way shape or form could afford it...period! My child is covered this way and through her fathers ins....running the primary ins first...then illinois plan picks up the co-pay on her stuff...very flexible :~)
  • PeggyM said:

    Even got my digital hearing aids for free and I just go to the doctors office and pick up batteries for them whenever I run out...at no charge! Plus all prescriptions are only £7.10, no matter what they are and when you turn 60 they are free! If you live in Wales or Scotland they are free to everyone there regardless of age.
    Here we go again, got your hearing aids for FREE and FREE batteries. £7.10 copay on any drugs.

    That is coming out of tax payer dollars/pounds/francs/yen whatever your currency. When is going to register with people that the government does not give you things for FREE... Is this concept that hard to grasp???

    The government takes in money and spends money. In this country when the government doesn't take in enough, they just print more!! It's called a deficit. A lot has to do with the all the "free riders" taking advantage of government plans that the rest of us do pay for in our tax DOLLARS!!!

    Europe has more than just that income tax you stated Peggy. You also have VAT tax and it is 18% as I recall.

    Sorry but I am not open to public health system like socialist countries have. I know who really foots the bill. The system is popular with the have-nots. Because they get their health care for FREE, as they like to call it.

    When someone comes up with a system that is equitable under public health care I'll listen. In this country the public health care that already exists comes right out of taxpayers pockets. The ones using it are the poor, low income, and the ones scamming the system. Most of those systems are abused badly. Health care, unemployment, and workers comp. The state I grew up in is laughably one of the worst abusers of Welfare and Workers Comp. Most of the insurance companies wanted out because the abuse was in the billions. That was in the early 90's...

    Just watch when Obama pushes his health care reform who will pick up the tab. It won't be the government. It will be the middle class, as usual...
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