Welcome, Friend!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Veritas-Health LLC has recently released patient forums to our Arthritis-Health web site.

Please visit http://www.arthritis-health.com/forum

There are several patient story videos on Spine-Health that talk about Arthritis. Search on Patient stories
Protect anonymity
We strongly suggest that members do not include their email addresses. Once that is published , your email address is available to anyone on the internet , including hackers.

All discussions and comments that contain an external URL will be automatically moved to the spam queue. No external URL pointing to a medical web site is permitted. Forum rules also indicate that you need prior moderator approval. If you are going to post an external URL, contact one of the moderators to get their approval.
Attention New Members
Your initial discussion or comment automatically is sent to a moderator's approval queue before it can be published.
There are no medical professionals on this forum side of the site. Therefore, no one is capable or permitted to provide any type of medical advice.
This includes any analysis, interpretation, or advice based on any diagnostic test

S1 Injection

Well here is another injection i can hang my hat on among many now to the s1 ! The confusion seems to be both injections helped going in to the periformis muscle with the previous injections but as the doctor knows does not realy mean its a periformis issue just yet,

Just because the injection helps kill off the pain for the sciatic nerve pain at the periformis region he feels does not mean its not from above it which some of the symptoms seems to be from the s1 of posibly being the worse nerve related issue,

Both injection helped same as this 1 to the S1 area not a disc issue but posibly nerve being agrivated as it exits from the S1 nerve root that passes through the bone opening,

If there was a 100% confirmation this is the issue causing nerve to get pissed off doctor says there is a simple surgery called not lami but forenotomy or something like that opening up making room for the nerve opening some of the bone for the s1 nerve,

Its clear to me no test is 100% and it becomes a guessing game to what is realy agrivating the nerve as movement shows it does get agrivated by any movement,

A scs i have clearly is not working on this nerve pain issue and instead of having surgery to remove it now makes no sense as i feel if they do decide to do surgery for either periformis releise or forenotomy or what ever the medical term is i feel can be done at the same time of scs removal !

If by some chance it turns out my issue was for the last 8 years periformis issue or S1 not the l4l5 they been going to town on after the ADR was implanted @l4l5 and later fused do to these symptoms !
I am going to make an appointment with every dr i seen the last 8 years and take that reflex hammer and hit them over the head with it just to see if anyone is at home !

I always said stop looking at the surgery area new pain is totaly diferent and lower then before the ADR surgery but last word is the doctors decision and we only have so much say so in the mater !

And yes i had my injection with no sedation ! Who the man now ! Lol.
Flexicore ADR 2004 resulting nerve damage l4l5 Fusion 2006 same level, 2009 hardware removal with lami !
2012 scs implant ,


  • DaveFusionDDaveFusion Posts: 476
    edited 01/05/2013 - 3:26 AM
    Hi Alex,

    I am glad that the surgeon is looking elsewhere to locate the pain generator source (root cause).

    You mention a Foraminotomy, (I had this decompression due to foramen stenosis as part of L5/S1 fusion), see video link at

    What scanning of S1 area has been done? Can't they see it in the scans?

  • No MRi from spine specialist never seems to show anything there from his point of view, All i know right now 2 nd day after this injection it helped the back part of the leg but now increased the pain on top of the leg going all the way to the top of the foot,

    This is the reason we always seem to come to a dead end as its multiple symptom from diferent level back of the leg pain dr thinks can be the s1 where burning starts from the nerve but always also wraps around to the front to top of the foot,

    Top of my left leg muscle is twiching as of now and pain is still there so not sure if thats back to the original L5 nerve root as was always said previously or from the l3l4 , I am totaly lost on this issue just as they are,

    It almost feels as the periformis injection helped more with both symptoms in my view, Does periformis issue affect both back of the leg on left side along with top part of the leg is what i like to know, ?

    I always thought the top muscle of the leg is from @l3l4 but i am no longer sure about anything , Lami was done on l3l4 during hardware removal of the l4l5 fusion ,

    We just never realy looked at the S1 and never considered it untill now just to see , I just dont get it,
    I would not even care if they fused all 3 levels at this point if they thought it would help because we just going around and around ,

    My gut always told me Adr should of been removed before fusing it in if its posibly too big causing all these other symptoms , They took a short cut and now they cant even figure it out ,

    My argument has been 1 dr who did the fusion after the ADR said he seen nerve damage , Another dr who removed the hardware later said he seen no nerve damage ! And i simply want confirmation which is the case now and if there is nerve damage i have the right to know what nerve it is !

    I want proof. You would figure after 8 years there be proof what nerve is damaged and where , I brought up about some doctor who has a new way to get image just on the nerves called neurogrophy of some sort i think in texas,
    He says they do that here also in chicago area, I asked him where and who ! He said he will find out my next appointment which was yesterday,
    So i brought it up again he had no answer ! Go figure ,
    Flexicore ADR 2004 resulting nerve damage l4l5 Fusion 2006 same level, 2009 hardware removal with lami !
    2012 scs implant ,
  • DaveFusionDDaveFusion Posts: 476
    edited 01/05/2013 - 1:50 PM
    Alex, hi

    Neurography in Chicago - try googling 'Illinois Neurography'. It's in Merrillville, southeast of Chicagoland.

    Did / do you get copies of scans and reports in the past? If not, then maybe worth considering for the future? After all, they are yours and shouldn't cost anything.

    Doctors should realise that people can have two or more things wrong with them at the same time. Possibly you have this too. That is, issues at two levels.

    You have looked at the Dermatome map showing the surface nerve ending locations. In the past. http://www.spine-health.com/forum/spine-health-announcements/dermatome-map As you know, most people have nerves like what is shown, but not all, as there are dermatome variations, we are all different. Also, there are considerable area overlap between nerves, its not as clear cut as drawn. Some people have 6 lumbar vertebrae, yes, they have a L6 and others have an extra rib, etc!

    I am a little lost with what happened regarding the recent injections. I hope I got it right that you had 3. Can you explain where these injections went into, in bit more detail? And what happened after each? And what type they were? I understand that the most recent one went into the Piriformis muscle, is that correct? I apologise if I've misunderstood you.

    Piriformis Syndrome - seems to be an under diagnosed condition. Do i understand that you think you have it? Found this link that may provide some info on its mechanism, http://www.spine-health.com/conditions/sciatica/what-piriformis-syndrome - The Piriformis muscle pinches the nerve in the buttock, irritating it. The nerve tells the brain there's trouble and it is interprets this as symptoms of sciatic pain. Can cause inability to stand on tip toes and weak ankle resistance to ankle roll. But you already know this.

    Hope the reduced pain from the injection is continuing!
  • Opppps ment has pain in ass....
    You would think after all this time someone could pin point it.
    Did doc say no more dancing?

    Is pain worse since the scs implanted...I say get that thing out of your ass, and find good nerve doc and let them go in take a look.

    What type shot was it? like esi?

    neck,bone spurs pain started 04, back issues and fusion l4,l5 06~hardware removed.
    good few yrs. 09 pain sharp, numbness feet,legs, diagnosed fibro, neurop. legs.lung issues.
    daily goal do good thing for someone.
  • There you go cool , Yes Merilville is not that far from me just south of here its Indiana, Now why does my doctor not know this sheesh,
    I have all my cd,s of mri ct scans you name it i have it emg report saying radicilapathy coming from posible s1 or there about, emg never realy said 100 % where its coming from,

    The 2 previous injecrions in to the periformis muscle yes helped right away and the plan was now doing an si joint injection to finaly confirm which is the problem , But somehow he changed it up again decided lets inject the s1 !

    He is confusing the hell out of me as he dont stick with the original plan by next appointment months later ,
    To be honest i dont even know what injection he realy did i just know they all had roids in it i am sure of that ,

    So sorry for the confusion and details. Let me back track ,

    He agreed its posible i may have periformis syndrome months back so 1 st time we did the injection in to the periformis to block or numb that muscle, Felt great i told him ,

    Months later pain again was real bad so went again asked if i can have another 1 so he agreed so that was 2 nd injection to the periformis felt great again,

    Pain came back as usual so i thought the plan was check the si joint to make sure its not the si joint and was going to inject the si joint,

    But he decided just because he can kill the pain at the periformis he is not yet convinced untill he injects the s1 ,
    Ok so now that this injection to the s1 is nowhere near as good in giving releif as it was in to the periformis muscle would leave still the posibility of either periformis syndrome or si joint disfunction correct ?

    If i read correct about this neurography that test takes the guessing game out of this if its periformis or si joint dysfunction i think but not sure,,!

    I am tierd of playing games already with this so if a neurography can confirm which it is then i would think it would be worth going having it done to make sure not the wrong surgery is done i assume,

    I would hate to have an ifuse and later find out oops sorry its periformis syndrome and now have that surgery also,

    I cant afford any more mistakes this time they would have to be dead on !

    Thanks for the info Dave, Might come in handy and hopefuly medicare covers this neurography test also as thats going to be a big factor, If its not covered by insurance my doctor beter figure it out and fast ,

    Flexicore ADR 2004 resulting nerve damage l4l5 Fusion 2006 same level, 2009 hardware removal with lami !
    2012 scs implant ,
  • They have been in there to take a look Mary sheesh lol, They explored during the hardware removal ,
    The scs aint causing any pain or any issues it just simply aint helping ,

    If they find the problem and if something has been missed like periformis or si joint then they can remove the scs during that surgery posibly,

    They cant just go in there looking around lol, If that was the case they would of put a zipper on my back !

    This newyear 2013 i have to wrap this spine crap up and end it once and for all, I am simply not convinced this is as good as it gets,
    Flexicore ADR 2004 resulting nerve damage l4l5 Fusion 2006 same level, 2009 hardware removal with lami !
    2012 scs implant ,
  • Thanks Alex.

    Now you might be able to start doing those Piriformis Stretch exercises in that article I referred to. But your probably doing them anyhow! If not, has he talked to you about specific Piriformis Stretching / exercises? Or a referred you to PT / Physiatrist experienced in this syndrome?

    Yeah, would be good to get the guessing out of this. It would be bad to have unnecessary surgery because of a trial and error approach.

    You could always call that MRI place and discuss if the scan is covered by insurance. might not be a good idea to leave it to this doctor, as his reliability is.... ummm, not the best. They would know straight away.

    Take care.

  • Yes i done all those stretch exercises for long time as this issue started right after the ADR implant and i did everything to work it out to recover and not have another surgery, The more i stretched the more that nerve got pissed off,

    The clicking in the left hip on leg raises i always brought up to them and none of the doctors ever thought much of it,
    Instead of them being concerned about the clicking in the left socket or posibly the si joint a new dr talked me in to fusion leaving the ADR in,

    After the fusion the clicking where pain seems to be coming from was still there and SI injections never give too much releif so i think was the reason we always moved on to something else,

    This past few months as 1 st time this pain dr agreed to inject the periformis muscle and it helped so much there has to be something to it , They cant ignore it now if it give such good releif ,

    I think he has a dr in mind who would do the periformis releise surgery if needed but i just need 100 % proof and neurography image cant hurt if its the perfect tool to show this kind of periformis syndrome that some dr,s dont even seem to agree on of being a true cause,

    I am aware of the conflict between doctors on this condition as some of course wont look for it if they never believe in it,

    But if they cant give a direct cause and they cant explain it or simply say its nerve damage but they cant show you where its damaged i have a problem with that ,

    If a neurography can exclude periformis and si joint disfunction and confirm its nerve damage then at least i know where the damage is and no longer would i have questions or concerns as that would bring me to the end of this journey and would have to accept its permanent nerve damage with no fix untill further research of nerve repair which might not be around in my life time at the rate they are going,
    Flexicore ADR 2004 resulting nerve damage l4l5 Fusion 2006 same level, 2009 hardware removal with lami !
    2012 scs implant ,
  • Hello Alex. Do your symptoms circumscribe to just one leg? I guess nerve irritation due to pyriformis entrapment should affect just one leg.
  • I know it can be so frustrating trying to figure out exactly where pain is coming from.Especially when a lot of the time it is coming from multiple things.

    Have you always had the clicking in your hip, or is that a more recent thing? Do you have pain around the hip as well? I also have a clicking in my left hip when I do left sided leg raise, and my doctor doesn't really say anything about it. I have pain in both hips as well as back, butt, down back of left leg which wraps around to front at calf with total numbness down into foot.

    The neurography test sounds like it will be good for you to have, hope you are able to have it done. How long ago was your emg? No conclusive results from that?

    Do you know what your pm plans to try next, S.i. Inj , or periformis again?
    >:D< >:-D< : Karen
    L3-S1 herniation and bulges, stenosis, mod facet,ddd,impinged nerves,coccydinia
    discectomy/lami July 2011-unsuccessful
    adr L5-S1 Feb 2012
  • Alex: it's good that the source of the pain is becoming clearer to you. And you have a plan.

    So, Im like you, i can't see how it can be nerve root damage. An injection in the periformis muscle wouldn't do anything if it was a damaged nerve root. The distance between these two locations is too large for the steroid to have an effect on the nerve root (but I'm no dr - :) ). Additionally this also shows that something mechanical is happening to squish your nerve somewhere. You just have to confirm exactly where its being squashed now.

    A thought for you, when the pain is back, have that injection again, but with only a small amount of local aneasthetic in it that can't reach the nerve root, then if the pain goes away again, then that's the confirmation you need. (No chance of steroid affect if no steroid is involved).

    I tried one of those exercises from the video in the periformis article, and wow, does that stretch highlight the tightness of that muscle in the butt, ooh! No sciatic pain, just tight muscle stiffness soreness. Will continue to attempt to ease it.
  • Sjoboy: Yes the nerve pain of burning and throbing is always off to 1 side left side where dimple is left of the tail bone !
    Starts there as it increases goes down back of the leg wraps around down outside of the leg not inside of it on to top of the foot !
    Once its in full flare up the muscle on top of the leg also is affected as i can feel the muscle twitching simply due to you feel the inside of the hip is on fire with the area of the dimple left of the tail bone burning where it starts from as they connect somehow or another !
    This is the reason i believe people mention removing your leg out of its socket seems to sound like a good idea when its on fire and in pain from the hip down !
    So yes my bigest symptom is off to 1 side= left.

    Karen : The clicking has been around from the time i had back trouble even before surgery but never had this kind of nerve pain coming from the area, Only after the ADR was put in back in 2004 i felt the nerve pain the moment i sat up after the surgery but i thought maybe thats normal ,
    It became clear very fast there is nothing normal about having that shooting pain when i sat up as it never resolved,
    The back pain got resolved with the ADR discogenic pain i believe its refered to as,
    But whatever that implant ADR in to the l4l5 created is far worse then my 20 years of back pain i was dealing with before surgery !

    You already know this is why i cant and wont say much good about ADR only because it caused me more damage then good, When you went in for your ADR i hoped for the best results for you and in case you did not notice i layed low as i did not want to feed you anything negative just before your surgery just cause mine ended up like this,
    My hope was you coming out of it 100 % pain free and be 1 that can say you now have no pain at all,
    But i read your updates even if i did not respond and sorry you also are not as good as you hoped !

    As to your question Karen of whats next for me ? Whatever the doctors thinks will be best from this point and he knows i have not given up and untill a have 100% proof and untill i am 100 % satisfied with answers even if i have to provide him with this neurohraphy test that he seems to not know much about and as Dave said they have it near by in Meriville Indiana and my doctor has the option to either find the cause himself or consider agreeing sending me for this nerve image and having this neurography !

    He works for me but he is still my lifeline of pain control so i dont want to step on his toes as i am a good boss ! Lol
    You never want to get too arrogant with your doctor especialy when you know he has been treating me beter then any other pain specialist ,

    Dave. Yes i will ask dr about trying that, Actualy i have to call them today, They said call monday let them know how injection is working, Answer is easy nerve pain is back so injection sucked !
    So time to go back to either si joint or prefer the periformis injection as periformis injection is very simple one in the ass !

    Either that or Indiana here i come ! Hey that neurography place beter not be in some trailer park , Neurography clinic on wheels ! The clinic moves every time parking brakes go out !

    Flexicore ADR 2004 resulting nerve damage l4l5 Fusion 2006 same level, 2009 hardware removal with lami !
    2012 scs implant ,
  • Hear that you are not giving up, and exploring all tests available to you to help diagnose where your pain is coming from. I know when I was gearing up for my adr surgery, your result was always right there in my mind, and I worried. I was not overly optimistic about how successful it was going to be, and deep down thought that I should have had fusion instead, but instead followed what the doctor thought would be better. When I went for my consultation there was a man who was 5 months post op from adr, and he went on about how he was now jogging and never felt better...think he was planted from my surgeon lol.

    I was doing some reading up about neurography, sounds like a great tool for diagnosing where nerve problems are coming from. Great that you live fairly close to one of their facilities. We don't have any here in Canada, but I am anxiously waiting to hear when my first pm appointment is. Like you, I really want to figure out exactly where my pain is generating from before I do anything radical again. Scheduled for L5 nerve block, but really think its lower than that.

    How often are you able to have your injections?Hope your next one brings relief
    >:D< >:-D< : Karen
    L3-S1 herniation and bulges, stenosis, mod facet,ddd,impinged nerves,coccydinia
    discectomy/lami July 2011-unsuccessful
    adr L5-S1 Feb 2012
  • Well sounded like a good idea. Found out nope neurography they due is not covered so would be like 5000 dollars out of pocket. Hard to imagine this is something only a private facility would do and not every doctor would use this tool if it has the posibility of finding causes of nerve issues and such,

    Thats just so wrong, Fda probably never aproved it as they sit on there assets and insurance dont have to pay for it this way, How does this help the medical field advance in our spine treatment if they hold a tool like this for private use only who can afford it only,

    We have the ability to go in the brain and know what each part of the brain does and have the ability to perform brain surgery but cant look further in to spinal nerves and beter tools and image to help many Americans with disability due to spine nerve issues and such,

    Things like this is what makes you wonder how much is held back for beter treatment for people as it dont seem to be a priority for the medical field,
    All the research funding and spine surgery even at its best is sometimes nowhere where it should be !

    This great invention artificial disc they talk about as if it was just invented yesterday when truth is its been around from back in the 50"s and 60"s and is not realy new , I read up on this and wonder wow its been done back in the days by doctors who had no tools we have today !

    And here we are 2013 they still trying to find the perfect artificial disc and how they can improve it as many fail to even put it in ways without causing injury or cause more complications then its worth,

    So lets get real , How far have we realy come with spine injury treatment ! If we realy come so far in new treatments why are risks still so high with spine surgery is what i like to know,

    In my view there is no excuse for this ! Back pain being the most cause of people missing work, leading cause of not being able to work, Bigest cause of being on disability and of course suffering due to this cause and ,life long pain treatment drugs, injections, dr visits,

    So of course its a big cost to the medicare system along with private health insurance costs,

    Often i hear people talking about this issue especialy when they have no spine issue and of course they have a diferent view when they are not cought up in it, They almost view the person thats injured as the problem on the system instead of the medical field and the lack of treatment for a condition they cant fix or cure !

    I view these people as the typical narcissistic nut jobs they mostly are as they see only what they want to see !
    These are the people we stay away from because how often we see members joining Spine Health due to dealing with people who i just mentioned ! 90% of the people i see come to Spine Health i have seen say Nobody understands !

    They are 100 % correct ! There is usualy a small % of people out there who will understand spine injury as any other injury can be serious and life long even after a surgery ! Its not always like when you pull your back out and you recover and life goes on ! Idiots will always compare there 1 time pulled muscle to your life long spine injury !

    Many here have read and used a Letter to Norm, to give to family and friends as its well writen and its to help others understand chronic pain and life long suffering due to your spine injury !
    For many it can be helpful to get there family and friends maybe understand your situation beter,

    But not all of us have same family and friends who understand the language used in the Letter to Norms,
    Some of us as myself have some family and some friends who are like a pack of wolves who were adopted out and raised by a family of baboons !

    So for those i will post a Letter to Not so Normals ,as how normal can they be when you have to explain something that is not very hard to understand ,

    This way i think you should have the option to go with Letter to Norms, if your people are normal ,

    Or you can go with Letter to Narcissistic morons raised by Baboons who sleep with sheep !
    If you have family members and few friends who will understand my poetry on chronic pain ! Lol


    Flexicore ADR 2004 resulting nerve damage l4l5 Fusion 2006 same level, 2009 hardware removal with lami !
    2012 scs implant ,
  • DaveFusionDDaveFusion Posts: 476
    edited 01/17/2013 - 9:31 PM
    Alex: I am sorry this light at the end of the tunnel has been blown out for you. Yeah, Shame it's not covered.

    Don't give up. What's next? Is the diagnostic anaesthetic injection into the Piriformis muscle still on the cards?

    Take care.
  • In my view its either si joint issue or preiformis or both , So yes i guess either is still in the cards,
    More then likely he will inject the si joint one more time now that the l5s1 injection seems did not do much,
    If the si joint injection dont help then i think he finaly will be convinced this is mostly periformis issue ,

    Its a shot in the dark but i am too far in to this mess already and have not much to lose at this point ,
    If they screw me up any more i will just donate by dead body to spine research and maybe then they will find the problem,

    They will open me up and find Hey look its a pen , What is a pen doing inside this guys L4L5 , Find out who this guys 1 st doctor was call him tell him we found his pen !

    That would be my luck,
    Flexicore ADR 2004 resulting nerve damage l4l5 Fusion 2006 same level, 2009 hardware removal with lami !
    2012 scs implant ,
  • Alex: I rang that first surgeon for you and he said "hey man, thanks for finding my pen. I've been looking everywhere for it! By the way, do you know where I can get a cadaver for some spine research?"

    Take care.
  • alexhurtingaalexhurting Posts: 1,991
    edited 04/10/2013 - 4:35 AM
    Wow. As I was researching again why other doctors in Chicago don't even know about neurography image and why they don't know much about min. Invasive surgery that is done by this private facility elsewhere out of network I simply can't wrap my brain around doctors not using this at all hospitals.

    During my search about this brought me to my original post about this subject while I google all the information and looking on YouTube also, This last periformis injection and my consult with a very good neuro dr confirms I might have been right all along as every doctor ignored my concerns after my ADR surgery that this is no longer a lumbar pain but pain is coming from my hip, Sciatic pain that's so severe quality of life is worse now then before and every doctor looking at me as if I was stupid or something but they push me in to a fusion that was not needed because they simply refuse to look at the hip which involves the sciatic pain either from si inflammation or periformis problem,

    This whole thing is an insult on top of injury as every doctor by now should know about this periformis issue many have after a spinal surgery and not pass it off as well I don't work on the hip so that's not my field so let me just try another spine surgery ,

    I knew our system is screwed up but never realized its this screwed up when a doctor can't simply send you to rule out other causes to the right doctor when even the best neuro made it clear he does brain surgery and spine but nothing lower then the low back ,
    That's like taking your car in to the dealer to get it fixed but you have to take it to another dealer to because 1 does motor work and the other does the trans,

    And of course the neuro never even gives me a referral to another dr who deals in hip periformis I have to get it from my pain doctor at the end of the day,

    Our health system works like our gov: Everybody gets paid but they do nothing to fix the problem !

    Even if it turns out I need periformis release surgery the normal surgery hospitals and doctors do is out dated very invasive not the best of outcomes so puts me at another high risk of things going wrong ,
    Because if you don't have the cash to pay out of network then you don't deserve the best quality of service by a private facility it seems,

    That's how much we mean to the health care system !
    I see a new ortho who deals in hip and periformis problems may 15 and go from there and give him an ear full,
    I know more now then I did 8 years ago and ain't jumping in to anything unless I am at least 98% sure I have the right doctor and the best person to confirm it and only do what needs doing with the least risk as possible because I can't afford any more mistakes after losing 8 or 9 years of my life to this pain condition,

    I will not go to my grave never knowing this could of been resolved and I did not push hard enough to find the cause and doctors neglect prevented me from living life the way it was ment to be lived !
    Flexicore ADR 2004 resulting nerve damage l4l5 Fusion 2006 same level, 2009 hardware removal with lami !
    2012 scs implant ,
  • Alex: good luck with your ortho surgeon consult on may 15.

    You certainly seem to be making progress now with a diagnosis, and I can understand your frustration with not finding the right doctor for the correct solution after all this time and. After having seen so many doctors and a number of surgeries as well.

    Yes it can mean wasted time / life / years. It's such a long slow process.

    All the best mate.
  • alexhurtingaalexhurting Posts: 1,991
    edited 04/11/2013 - 7:54 AM
    Thanks Dave, I hope I get the final results with new doctor also as it's way long over do, ct scan is a must on the hip as they can't do MRI due to scs implant , scs will have to be removed as it's useless but I can hold off with that for last if they can resolve the hip pain or whatever the cause might be,

    How you been doing ? You hanging in there also ?
    Flexicore ADR 2004 resulting nerve damage l4l5 Fusion 2006 same level, 2009 hardware removal with lami !
    2012 scs implant ,
This discussion has been closed.
Sign In or Register to comment.