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Pain Medication and the DEA

stonecold1robsstonecold1rob Posts: 16
edited 06/11/2012 - 8:54 AM in Chronic Pain
We live in a very sad country, not only can't people afford or get medical care but even if they do get insurance doesn't mean they will get treatment. Now the DEA is in on health Care if a Doctor prescribes certain legal pain pills more then the DEA likes he can get 30 years for and it has happend. I suffer from back problems for the last 26 years of my life. I have had back fusions, bone graffs ect. The onley Thing That helps is a Strong pain Medication and getting that in todays world is like pulling teeth.
Pain Medication is onley a problem if abused just like drinking. if you have a glass of wine a day it.s ok if you drink 3 bottles you have a problem. Most people who need Pain meds never become addictid but you onley here about the few that due. And now the rest of us suffer. As for the DEA why don't you go win the real war on drugs, what is this the onley fight you can win?..
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Comments

  • dilaurodilauro ConnecticutPosts: 9,726
    Your post borders on the line of being inappropriate.
    I would suggest reading the forum rules before posting.

    Your statements appear to come from various articles, which do emphasize some problems.

    There is so much more valid and good actions going on daily between Doctors, DEA, Pharmacy and so much more.

    The one statement you made which is correct,
    stonecold1rob said:

    Pain Medication is only a problem if abused just like drinking.
    Ron DiLauro Spine-Health System Administrator
    I am not a medical professional. I comment on personal experiences
    You can email me at: rdilauro@veritashealth.com
  • For instance, where I live, there is only one place that does pain mgmt and you are pretty much at their mercy. No regular primary doctors around here will touch a pain patient and that is a fact. I had quite a battle with my pain mgmt doctor to finally get her to start giving me what I needed to manage my pain and I find it ridiculous. The DEA in my opinion is also ridiculous. They are sticking their noses in where they don’t belong.
    An example is I have a sister in law who has been charged in 3 states with prescription fraud, a total of 84 times now in the state of Utah. She ran to Vegas, living in every town between here and there and racked up numerous SAME charges in each place. She finally got caught (3 years later) (and she was on the run because she had been caught here, that is why she moved to begin with and skipped her court dates) so they extradite her to every town all the way back, she goes to the jail, pays bail, and some even let her out on her own recognicense or whatever that is, then once she gets back here, she racks up another 48 counts of prescription fraud (in a month) and NOTHING HAPPENS! She misses her court dates with some lame excuse why she can’t make it – her lawyer covers her and when she finally went to court after about 6 missed dates - she paid a small fine because she is poor and can’t afford much. Are you kidding me? Government at it’s finest. She can’t be extradited back to Nevada on all those charges, so she now lives here to continue doing the same thing over and over and over. This has been going on for 10 years at least! She put her 74 year old mother into bankruptcy stealing from her and of course her mother is an idiot and lets it ride, which has nothing to do with this but – this woman has stolen from other family members, broke in, taken checkbooks, personal items to sell, you name it – nothing ever happens! She has stolen over 50,000 from brothers, cousins and other family and we all know it. She went to court over one of them and even tho the cousin had a video of her taking his checkbook out of his jacket (because he KNEW she was crawling thru his doggie door doing that) it was dismissed. If the DEA is so worried about drugs – they need to be going after people like her. They don’t care if people are dying from drug overdoses – this is nothing more than the Government wanting more control! Why aren’t they going after dealers on the streets, etc. People that get pain meds for pain do not sell them on the street corner – it’s ridiculous. I could walk down the street right now where I work and buy anything I wanted in 5 different places if I wanted it. THOSE are the people the DEA should be concerned with; not doctors and pain patients. There are probably far more pain patients blowing their brains out over lack of pain control than idiots killing themselves with drug overdoses. I’ve known several on both sides of that fence. Personally, I have little sympathy for druggies anyway, they are the ones that make doctors leery about pain patients that are legitimate. It is no different than “gun control”. The people that want guns are always going to find a way to get them – period. The government isn’t going to stop that anymore than they are going to stop addicts from using.
  • When the DEA makes Dr. not want to prescribe pain medication to patients with no abuse problems and a long history of pain and suffering I see that as a problem. I will read your rules. because I don't want to be kicked from this sight. But once again sounds like a little piece of freedom gone. Freedom of Speech. If I offended any one sorry for that.Some of what I wrote comes from 26 years of pain. I have not needed pain medication for 26 years just on and off in that time and it is way more difficult to get the right pain meds today then yesterday. and yes a lot of that is the war on drugs. Fact.
  • dilaurodilauro ConnecticutPosts: 9,726

    1 - DEA does NOT force Doctors into any situation regarding prescriptions. All that is being done by the DEA and many times by Insurance companies is that Doctors need to be able to justify writing various scripts.

    2 - Forum Rules. Every member needs to read the rules here to avoid posting something that can be deleted or result in being banned from the site.

    3 - Freedom of Speech. When it comes to privately owned online forums, this is always subject to forum rules and Administrator/Owners review. So, bottom line, no you can not post anything you want.
    Ron DiLauro Spine-Health System Administrator
    I am not a medical professional. I comment on personal experiences
    You can email me at: rdilauro@veritashealth.com
  • We had a discussion about ME being 8 short on my last pill count. I told her, it has rained non-stop and blah, blah, blah and I can’t just quit my life and commitments. She said, she does not think by any means I’m an addict but she does believe I way over do it and then take an extra pill or a half (which is the case) to compensate for the ungodly pain. She is correct and I told her so. She also said that the DEA IS breathing down their necks to justify every prescription and if there is anything amiss she could be in big trouble as well as the entire staff/office etc. The DEA IS sticking their noses where they don’t belong. The war on drugs is NOT with pain patients – period!
  • Mouse said:
    There are probably far more pain patients blowing their brains out over lack of pain control than idiots killing themselves with drug overdoses.
    A chilling but stark reality of the entire situation.

    Well said.

    "C"
  • dilaurodilauro ConnecticutPosts: 9,726
    to help eliminate some of the prescription abuses that plague us today.

    The DEA is not trying to STOP Doctors from prescribing narcotics, they just want to make sure it is being done for the right reason.

    In this area, we had one doctor that if you told him your finger nail hurt, he would easily right you a prescription for 100 Tylox! He did not have to answer to anyone and that is drug abuse coming from the doctor.

    That was over 10 years ago, if the same thing happened today, the doctor would hesitate before writing any narcotic prescription. They would have to make sure it is want is warranted in the patients situation.

    So, I am very happy that the DEA is trying to control this. If they didnt, in a very short times things would get out of control and THEN the government would really need to clamp down.

    I am all for tougher controls for writing prescriptions for narcotics. I only want to see that the scripts are being written for the right patient and for the right reason.
    Ron DiLauro Spine-Health System Administrator
    I am not a medical professional. I comment on personal experiences
    You can email me at: rdilauro@veritashealth.com
  • I think the DEA is barking up the wrong tree and has no business sticking their nose where it doesn't belong. Governement control - that is the last thing we need. I see firsthand how it works.
  • As a medical professional I can tell you it's all about who you are. If the DEA would go after the right people and doctors it wouldn't be a problem but all they do is make it harder for people who do need valid pain control. The war on drugs is a joke. And we all know it. If people want drugs , they will get them. I say like alcohol, anything can be abused. Let's go after the billions and billions in Medicare fraud that is going on, coming from your taxpayer dollars. People with chronic pain have enough to deal with !
  • There is good reason that the DEA was forced to get involved into the distribution of pain medicine. Simply google "florida pain clinic documentary"

    What was going on there was absolutely insane thus giving a window of opportunity for the DEA to take things too far in other places where doctors legitimately and ethically prescribe medicine to those who are in need.

    I can tell you before I had my back surgery, the doctor I was seeing was very rude about prescribing pain medicines to me because I was only 24 during the couple months before I had back surgery. He said everything to me just short of calling me a junkie. EVEN with my MRI scans in his hand.
  • just that -- drug enforcement agency. They are supposed to be watching to make sure things are not overprescribed or that people are not trying to skirt the rules. I have a DEA agreement signed with my doctor (perhaps you should ask your doc about one). It simply states that he will provide me with prescriptions for my chronic pain condition, as long as I follow some basic rules: 1) my internist is the only doctor allowed to prescribe pain meds for me, 2) I may fill that prescription at only one drug store. In the nearly three years I've needed these meds, this has never caused me a problem. Too many people doctor shop -- they get as many prescriptions as they can from several doctors. They take those prescriptions to various drug stores and get them filled, so they have a huge supply they can sell on the street. Obviously, these are not the people in pain - they are criminals trying to make an illegal buck. The DEA is there to help make sure these people don't mess things up for those of us who really need the drugs. If you relax your attitude and follow the rules, you generally have a much easier time.
    3 level spinal fusion, L3/4, L4/5, L5/S1, November 2008. Stiff, but I can walk.
  • Here we have a good debate going on with people from each side of the fence. This is a good thing. I agree there are people who abuse what pain med is for. That is a fact. But remember some of the most horrible things in this world have been done for what seemed a good Idea. It take one junky and one over zealouse DEA agent to screw things up for real people in real pain. I just happen to be on one side of the fence on this topic.
    Love to see such a great debate and everyone has stated the point very friendly.
  • I was going to stop and watch. But here is a thought I wonder how many DR. the DEA employee's to go over the scripts that are written HMMMM.... would love an answer to that. I know we all hate when a none DR. at an insurance company tells us we don't need that med. or test. So not sure if it's the same with the DEA I just wonder?
  • I was going to stay out of this thread, but I couldn't. I had to retire a little over a year ago from "a" Federal agency that enforces "Title 21" - DEA Criminal code. My primary job was "narcotics interdiction and smuggling."

    The FDA as you know places recommendations and restrictions on how much of a particular drug a person can safely take. They also place regulations on what is safe, what needs to be pulled, and what classifications a particular drug needs to be in.

    The DEA and other Federal agencies then enforce those rules. This all also depends on the weight of the offense as for who has jurisdiction. The DEA for instance doesn't go after petty criminals. Those that get a month of pills and sells them - states go after them. There wouldn't be enough agents in the whole world to go after every 'little' case that the states (yes the STATES) need to go after.

    The DEA does NOT tell doctors what to prescribe, or how much. For the DEA to go after a particular doctor, they have to be pretty much to the pain (pill mills) clinic abuse levels like we've seen down here in Florida. Another flag is if the doctors are routinely exceeding FDA <-- FDA guidelines, not DEA guidelines. If said activity goes over the state line (even though the weight was a state offense) it becomes federal, and then they or other federal agencies with cross designation take the lead.

    Did you know the Postal Inspectors can enforce some DEA criminal law? Yep, interstate smuggling and fraud by use of the postal system. So sitting here without knowing *what* laws the DEA does in fact enforce, and too not understanding that there are a lot of other entities that are part of the whole picture does a disservice to a very good and hardworking agency.

    Walk a mile in the foot of a federal agent, and then you can tell me what they do or don't do when it comes to doing their job, or sticking their noses in "stuff that isn't their business" when in fact it is... That ranks up there with guys we went to arrest. "I know my rights.." Yeah, okay.

    Ron, you covered this very well. :)

    Brenda
    PCTF C4 - T2, Laminectomies C5, C6 & C7. Severe Palsy left arm/hand.
  • DEA...As you can see, "drugs" is not the only item of interest under Title 21. The FDA conducts a lot of joint investigations and cases on many of these as well. The DEA has tons on their plates. So that farmer who is overdoing the steroids on his cattle might have problems with the FDA & DEA...

    CHAPTER 1—ADULTERATED OR MISBRANDED FOODS OR DRUGS (§§ 1_to_5—26)
    CHAPTER 2—TEAS (§ 41_to_50)
    CHAPTER 3—FILLED MILK (§§ 61—64)
    CHAPTER 4—ANIMALS, MEATS, AND MEAT AND DAIRY PRODUCTS (§§ 71_to_92—149)
    CHAPTER 5—VIRUSES, SERUMS, TOXINS, ANTITOXINS, AND ANALOGOUS PRODUCTS (§§ 151—159)
    CHAPTER 5A—BUREAU OF NARCOTICS (§ 161_to_165)
    CHAPTER 6—NARCOTIC DRUGS (§§ 171_to_174—200_to_200b)
    CHAPTER 7—PRACTICE OF PHARMACY AND SALE OF POISONS IN CONSULAR DISTRICTS IN CHINA (§§ 201—215)
    CHAPTER 8—NARCOTIC FARMS (§ 221_to_237)
    CHAPTER 9—FEDERAL FOOD, DRUG, AND COSMETIC ACT (§§ 301—399a)
    CHAPTER 10—POULTRY AND POULTRY PRODUCTS INSPECTION (§§ 451—472)
    CHAPTER 11—MANUFACTURE OF NARCOTIC DRUGS (§ 501_to_517)
    CHAPTER 12—MEAT INSPECTION (§§ 601—695)
    CHAPTER 13—DRUG ABUSE PREVENTION AND CONTROL (§§ 801—971)
    CHAPTER 14—ALCOHOL AND DRUG ABUSE EDUCATIONAL PROGRAMS AND ACTIVITIES (§ 1001_to_1007)
    CHAPTER 15—EGG PRODUCTS INSPECTION (§§ 1031—1056)
    CHAPTER 16—DRUG ABUSE PREVENTION, TREATMENT, AND REHABILITATION (§§ 1101—1194)
    CHAPTER 17—NATIONAL DRUG ENFORCEMENT POLICY (§ 1201_to_1204)
    CHAPTER 18—PRESIDENTS MEDIA COMMISSION ON ALCOHOL AND DRUG ABUSE PREVENTION (§ 1301_to_1308)
    CHAPTER 19—PESTICIDE MONITORING IMPROVEMENTS (§§ 1401—1403)
    CHAPTER 20—NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL PROGRAM (§§ 1501,_1502—1548)
    CHAPTER 21—BIOMATERIALS ACCESS ASSURANCE (§§ 1601—1606)
    CHAPTER 22—NATIONAL DRUG CONTROL POLICY (§§ 1701—1714)
    CHAPTER 23—NATIONAL YOUTH ANTI-DRUG MEDIA CAMPAIGN (§ 1801_to_1804)
    CHAPTER 24—INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS TRAFFICKING (§§ 1901—1908)
    CHAPTER 25—MISCELLANEOUS ANTI-DRUG ABUSE PROVISIONS (§§ 2001—2014)
    CHAPTER 26—FOOD SAFETY (§§ 2101—2110)

    PCTF C4 - T2, Laminectomies C5, C6 & C7. Severe Palsy left arm/hand.
  • Stonecold,

    Thank you for you wonderful PM. I just had to step in for my brothers and sisters in this fight. It isn't "just" drugs sadly, but fraud, animals, importation, smuggling etc., that are the case generators. There are so many agencies that "overlap" on some of these cases, pain pills are only a small part of the whole picture.

    Sadly, "on the news", it all depends on the flavor of the week what the public sees as the bad guy? This week Oxycodone is the bad guy, and next week it will be something else. Sadly the DEA by its name gets tagged with being the government 'bad guy' in many cases. When actually *many* cases are generated by citizen informants or local police. We have to follow the leads (oops, retired Brenda), I *had* to follow the leads and tips to see if there was anything to the said allegations... :)

    Brenda
    PCTF C4 - T2, Laminectomies C5, C6 & C7. Severe Palsy left arm/hand.
  • Well I must say I learned a lot about the DEA the last two sleepless nights. And it was very cool didn't know how they came about ect. but after some research I do now.
    So I guess it's like this it takes one bad apple too spoil the barrel.
    I think after a couple of good arrest for prescription trafficing and maybe just maybe a couple bad arrest for the same offense has DR. a little jumpy. And we also know the media plays a role in all this too with coverage of lets say the death of Michael Jackson and many more.Sad part is maybe when a person is in such pain there will to live kinda goes out the door also. I know some times I feel like i don't want to suffer any more. then I look at my son and I smile and live on.
  • Stonecold,

    Howdy!! The DEA originally started as the Bureau of "Narcotics" and then was blended with US Customs, and then after a bit moved into their own agency and renamed The Department of "Drug Enforcement Agency", moved out of the Dept. of Treasury into the Dept. of Justice. A lot of the guys where pissed, as they identified with being with Customs, and moved over to the Justice Department, and a DEA agent. (Normal - we all hate change).

    The agency I was with was moved to Homeland Security, and yes, I 'fought' the change internally for a while! (G) As I posted, there are tons of things under Title 21 we had to learn for enforcement purposes. The FDA is the "owner" (for lack of a better term) of Title 21, the DEA was tasked with specifically "enforcing" Title 21. Each major Federal agency enforces a specific title - all share Title 18 - Federal Criminal code, but each is assigned a specific "area" of code to specialize in, and some of us (now retired) cross designated per owner agency.

    If within my knowledge base, please PM for more info, or more clarification. :) I will now watch this thread for input or knowledge.

    Brenda
    PCTF C4 - T2, Laminectomies C5, C6 & C7. Severe Palsy left arm/hand.
  • You are not going to get any love for the DEA from me. Anyone knows the war on drugs is an utter failure. You can make all the laws you want, take over the counter meds and put them behind the counter, put major restrictions on docs and the abusers will find either a way or a new drug. Just look at "bath salts" and when they are restricted it will be a new one. If anyone thinks the restrictions the DEA and FDA have now with the new REM program does not affect pain patients then you are mistaken. We are going to suffer because of this. Maybe not you or everyone but some patients will. I agree, the government has no business in medical care.
  • Chrissysmom said:
    "bath salts"
    Can you explain please?
    Kelly
    APROUD CANADIANveteranButNOTa doctor, my thoughts are my own
  • Thanks for explaining that Brenda. Some fail to understand just what different agencies charters are and why,

    And thanks Linda for stating the most obvious that seems to escape some here. The DEA is just that -- drug enforcement agency.

    They don't make the rules, they are paid to and expected to ENFORCE them. They are the cops, not the lawyers and judges. They work for the DOJ, Department of Justice (the judges and lawyers). The DOJ does make those rules. So if you don't like the DEA checking up on your doctor. Tell the DOJ, not the DEA. Tell your senator or congress person. That will have more of a chance of changing things than yelling at the DEA.
  • Kelly, there are substances sold under "bath salts" that he user then does something with, I can't remember what, and then gets high. CBC did a few stories on it, there have been a lot of cases where they end up in the ER, phycosis and overdose. I'll try and find the CBC story and I will PM you if I can find it.
  • Z06 said:
    They don't make the rules, they are paid to and expected to ENFORCE them. They are the cops, not the lawyers and judges. They work for the DOJ, Department of Justice (the judges and lawyers). The DOJ does make those rules. So if you don't like the DEA checking up on your doctor. Tell the DOJ, not the DEA. Tell your senator or congress person. That will have more of a chance of changing things than yelling at the DEA.
    Graham,

    Excellent wording here Graham, excellent! Short of exigent circumstances, all arrests where via approval with a warrant. The warrant is only approved with the signature of a judge. Many times too, the State or US Attorney gave the nod as well.

    This all comes about from evidence derived during an investigation, brought forward to those that would "try" the case in court. We have (for me had) to go by the "Federal Rules of Evidence", so it isn't like law enforcement is making this stuff up. Especially now a days, everything is scrutinized to a gnats ass as they say! (G)

    Like you said, didn't make the rules, but have to go by them whether we liked (or agreed) with them or not. 8>

    Brenda
    PCTF C4 - T2, Laminectomies C5, C6 & C7. Severe Palsy left arm/hand.
  • Got them, thanks Snookie. Wow. That's right up there with the people who drink hand sanitizer.
    Kelly
    APROUD CANADIANveteranButNOTa doctor, my thoughts are my own
  • Numbskull said:
    Got them, thanks Snookie. Wow. That's right up there with the people who drink hand sanitizer.
    And this, right here is why no matter what law is enacted, no matter what agency enforces it, no matter what "they" do.... there is always going to be people out there willing to do stupid #$%# to get high.

    And the rest of us will pay for it, just so some politician has a 30 second sound bite on the news that will have morons voting for him because he/she is "doing" something, LOL :( Voters are morons and politicians know it.
  • Hehehe... Actually a LOT of states are beating the Federal Govt. to the punch on these so called "bath soap powders", and what the idiot pile of our population has worked out for a high! (G) I know Florida is about to ban them, and I think in the news, California is on board to do the same?

    I agree with you about voters and politicians! (Big grins!!!)

    Brenda
    PCTF C4 - T2, Laminectomies C5, C6 & C7. Severe Palsy left arm/hand.
  • I wasn't on last night I was Able To Sleep almost a whole night.
    I see we are still debatig the whole DEA thing.
    Well Here is a good thought and after yesterday. I have a good Idea it's true. Here is one way the war on drugs has affected people with chronic pain.
    And that is at sometime when the goverment decided pain meds are a problem. They developed new laws and new education for the teaching of DR. And that is the teaching that pain meds are bad. And the teaching that if it's called a narrcotic it's bad. We see this thinking more so in younger DR.
    I have a great way to solve it and that would be to make a pain med that isn't a narcottic, but here is the catch. IT HAS TO WORK! Until then get the goverment out of pain control for people who are sick. I have had back problems for 26 years but not on pain meds for 26 years just on and off usually before and after a surgery and guess what yester day at the Dr. It was brought up that I might have to go under the knife again. So this is the third month on pain meds this time and the young DR and I did have a very heated conversation about narrcotics so yes this has become a problem for people in pain and yes maybe it's not the dea's fault but who do you think was in charge of the war on drugs and went to congress and said we need tougher pain med control I bet one of the mentioned agency's did have a hand in the whole mess.
  • It is so funny that you brought up bath salts, my girlfriends mom is a addiction counsler and she was telling us this story last week about bath salts I couldn't beleive it. anyone who has ever used them ( for a bath ) knows they have a very powerful smell. while she was telling us all I could think of is man that has to hurt. And it made me think of the old Cheech and Chong movie when the woman snorted ajax. And it's not funny but the thought of that movie sure made me laugh.
  • Bath salts are not really "bath salts" that is just what they are calling them. They are super dangerous. A man in our area tried to preform surgery on his own leg after using them. Hope they get them off the street soon.
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