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i wonder is it possible for the body itself to reject bmp??

vivavegasvvivavegas Posts: 185
edited 06/11/2012 - 8:24 AM in Back Surgery and Neck Surgery
Hi, most of you all will know that i had bmp used in my spinal fusion operation.....im juat wondering if its possible that the body itself would reject the bmp........just wondering if its possible.suppose it is???
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Comments

  • When you say BMP, are you talking about when they use your own bone marrow to create new bone, or to be used as filler? If so, I don't know how you could reject that. Keep in mind, I'm no doctor, but since it is your own bone marrow, bone, and blood, it just doesn't seem feasible that your body would reject what is already your own. Look for Dr._Eric, he's been on the Chronic Pain topic, maybe he would know. He seems to be one smart cookie. Even if he doesn't know the answer, he's a very nice gentleman. Good luck in finding your answer!
  • Hi Viva, I think that is still a question without an answer. My surgeon has been using it since 2002 in hundreds of fusions and says he hasn't had one person with an allergy or bone-overgrowth so far. Now we have read the stories here, Saltzworks for instance had a possible allergy to it. From the research I have read it seems the problems were more r/t bone-overgrowth and also bmp use in cervical fusions which it is not approved for.

    I do hope you are going to get all your exams by the specialists before you decide on removing your bmp, in case there is some other explanation for your symptoms.

    For topfuelfan, bmp is bone morphogenic protein, it is a synthetic form of a protein found in our bodies that promotes bone growth. It is placed in fusion sites to help them grow, often combined with cages, autograph, etc. Here is a link if you are interested....
    https://www.infusebonegraft.com/spine_index.html

    Best wishes, >:D< Sue
  • There is certainly more evidence of excessive bone growth than of the body rejecting BMP. I could not find any reference anywhere to rejection, but that's not to say that it couldn't happen.

    As always, discuss fully all your options with your surgeon and push him to fully identify and explain all the advantages and risks of whatever he/she is proposing.

    All the best... Bruce
    Keep positive!

    Bruce

    ...an old timer here and ex-moderator

  • Thanks guys for responding to my posts,calisue.........in my case i have scoloisis, the surgeon put in the bmp at the transverse processes.he didnt put in any metalwork to hold it in place...so im wondering if perhaphs it has moved about and caused problems and with me having tighter muscles on one side of my back.like it probably has effected it............im also wondering if like my gp said thinks i have a arthritis going on then would the feelings of going from hot and sore joints to cold and not realling feeling joints be an indication that my nervous system is being tampered with.........with the bmp..........u know where im coming from, i was thinking its just a possability, and also i mean to ask would working in the lumbar and like it there is overgrowtgh of the bmp would that weaken the whole side of the body/muscles if effecting the nervous system..........i know im asking alot of questions but just trying to think of everything and think of all posibilities
  • Viva, I am so sorry you are suffering so with your fusion and these odd symptoms. Do follow up with the specialists to rule out the possibility of some other systemic problem. If you decide to have further spine surgery I hope that you can find a surgeon whom you trust to address your BMP concerns and possibly determine if there is a way to treat your scoliosis, degeneration, etc. Are you familiar with the way bmp comes? I will post a link for you to look at. The bmp is in a solution that is placed onto collagen sponge type matter. This sponge I believe is biodegradeable. The bmp grows bone and the sponge matter disappears/resorbs eventually. Do you get where I am going with this? I think if they open you up, its not like they can reach in and take out a lump of bmp. It is most likely long gone and there is bone grown over the transverse processes. I had this same type of fusion along with my interbody fusion and at 8 weeks I already have fusion over the transverse processes. So I question whether the bmp is even retrievable at this point. Remind me again how long ago your fusion was? So anyway, Viva, please discuss this with the surgeon you find. Only a qualified surgeon who has undone a fusion should be attempting to do this procedure to you. I do hope you can find some answers. Don't give up. Get your studies done and I hope they have some answers for you. Take care, >:D< Sue

    https://www.infusebonegraft.com/bone_morphogenetic_proteins.html
  • Thank you Cali-Sue for that link. It was such a shock to read the information about bone harvesting. I've had this done to me, a very large piece of pelvis (larger than normal) was removed for use in my fusion. I was unaware that the pain could in fact last forever, which mine has. I never knew what it was caused from. Now I know! Mine was done before BMP I guess. It was about 6 years ago. I've had some questions answered now, thank you!
  • After reading through the link that Cal-Sue sent me to, it doesn't sound like rejection would be a very big possibility. But who knows? I do wish I had been given that option rather than what I went through. IMO I do feel that the bone itself could indeed overgrow. Maybe it could even trap nerves? Since I'm not a doctor I can't say, but I do wonder about what is happening to you. I hope so much for your sake that you find an answer soon. I'm sending you good wishes and a huge hug!
    Topfuel >:D<
  • Hey Viva,

    I did not get a chance yet to look at the link in depth that Cali put up but I will later today.

    I did do some research though on BMP last night and yes it is someting that is actually found in our body in minute amounts. I read a lot about all the different enzymes and other substances in our bodies that is uses to do the growing of bone etc. It was very interesting that in only 1 out of 4 articles I read that is mentioned anything about avergrowth, and in fact it did not use that esact terminology!
    BMP can and does also cause, if I am understnading what I have read, cause an inflammatory process that can sometimes get out of hand as well.
    What I found interesting also was that in the 4 or so article that I read, all from reputable sites, from universities or medical jouranls etc. I never read anywhere that the BMP was used with out and type of instrumentation!
    That was what shocked me.

    I am not done investigating more into this because I find it quite facinnating.
    In your case dependng on how much overgrowth they are saying there is I do believe that it could cause a range of differnt things to occur and cause different types of pain.

    Now I am in NO way a doctor or anything so if someone else has found some other information that contradicts what I have read about please send me the link because I am really interested in this and would like to read it.

    So Viva hang in there and when is your next doc appt.?? Are you going today?
    Let me know ok!!
    Chrissy
  • I just wanted to say thanks guys for replying AGAIN, calisue thanks for that link, and i know where u r coming from with that one calisue, the surgeon would have to go in there take away all that excess bone, and that is what scares me, i mean what if he takes too much bone,what if he causes nerve damage, if the stuff has overgrown, yes ur right top it probably could trap nerves, its probably giving me all different symptoms, and them nerves are probably sending different messages to the brain.one of the surgeons at our local hospital actually said i dont think she is getting the messages........its just finding the right surgeon to go in there and take it out, i did ask the surgeon who operated on me about it and he said why would u want me to go in and take it out..HELLO LOL .........he said it would be disastrous for him to go in there he said i made sure u would fuse, im so scared, chrissy im actually wondering myself if its legal to put bmp on the transverse processes/or spinous processes without instrumentation...............maybe thats why this surgeon is giving me the brush off.perhaphs instrumentation should have been used........another thiong that im wondering is if the surgeon goes in there and cuts out this bone then will more just regrow..............not sure about that one now, im also wondering with him working in the lumbar, like could the lumbar effect my breathing.perhaphs with nerve involvement anythings possible.......im just so scared to think that all this bmp stuff has like messed up alot of nerves in my lumbar.........and im wondering what company makes bmp and if i could find out if its legal to use it in the lumbar without instrumentation, i dont want a lawsuit, i just want this stuff out, im so glad that a surgeon in Dublin said that the excess bone could be taken out, but how would he know he got all of it, and i think it would be a very tricky operation........since this surgery straight away my legs were like jelly and the pain in the ribcage was unbearable and chrissy the inflamation thing makes sense cause i was admitted to hospital they thought i had had a clot because my inflamation thing had gone up, i literally couldnt breath my back felt like it was unfire.........the bottom line for me is finding a good surgeon that will go in and take it out, and u know i would rather the surgeon that done it would go in there and do that because at least he knows what he done, but he probably wont want to do that because maybe it should have had instrumentation.......does anyone know if there are alot of nerves in and around the spinous/transverse processes.....i think it was the spinous processes that he actually fused........im just wondering how much this surgeon will charge me to undo this.probably thousands.which i will have to take out a loan for, the german surgeon that was willing to do it was looking for 30,ooo euros which in dolars is about 60,000 i think..........but he was going to go into my spinal canal and open it up and reconstruct and all that but i dont want that, i just want this fusion undone and this excess bone removed..when they are removing excess bone and cutting , im only being logical in thinking this but like could fragments of bone enter in the cord.......suppose anythings possible..................i tell you all this its all one big mess and things like these puts pressure on a marriage, i think only i have a really good husband, someone else may have walked, and i feel so guilty about all this i really do............i have a strong faith in god and i hope and pray that he guides me to the right surgeon who can help sort this mess out......thanks again guys, you have all been sooo good, i really mean it when i say i appreciate it.. :X :X
  • Did you go yet to the other Drs to see if all your symptoms are from the BMP or from other means. Now that you say that you had a big infammatory response, this really sounds like it could be something different and not the BMP.
    I really urge you to see the Rhuematologist if you haven't already and when you do dont suggest it could be the BMP as that could influence his diagnosis. Go in, tell him your symptoms and how it makes you feel and that you have had this surgery. Take your scans with you.
    It may be that the BMP has overgrown and needs to be removed but that may not be the answers to all your symptoms.
    I know you are scared but being scared is not helping you in any way. Try to relax about it for a while and I know it is not easy when you are in pain but try to do the best for your body and at this time while you are waiting the best thing is to rest and exercise as you are able.

    Blessings Sara O:)
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