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Sciatic nerve damage?

AnonymousUserAAnonymousUser Posts: 49,670
Hi everyone,

I am writing about my 17 year old son. A year ago he injured his back while lifting weights at school (squats). At the time he was diagnosed with a strained hamstring as he did not have any back pain to indicate otherwise.

When his muscle strain did not improve, he was sent to physical therapy for a month. He continued to get worse and the pain started to travel up & down his leg. He was then sent to an orthopedic who did an MRI and found he had a herniated disc.

He then went to physical therapy for the herniated disc. He continued to worsen at a steady pace. He then was sent to a neuro-sugeon. We were contemplating trying the shots in the back, but opted for surgery because of him steadily worsening.

He had surgery about 9 weeks ago and he is still getting worse. Two weeks ago they did an MRI with dye and said there was scar tissue and inflammation. But, from what I read that doesn't make sense because he did not have a break in sciatic nerve pain after surgery. It was still there.

He can only tolerate school half days. He cannot sit for long, can't walk far, can't jump or bed over. His walk is affected, he is walking flat footed and raises his hip. His left ankle is extremely weak. He has shin splints. He has some numbness and tingling going down the back of his leg. And of course the sciatic pain from the buttocks down.

The neuro-surgeon wants to schedule a CT Scan. I asked the nurse about doing an EMG and she is going to ask the neuro about it. Do you think it's jumping the gun to conduct an EMG 2 months post surgery?

We don't know what to do here and I'm afraid that he has something permanent going on. When he's 18 in June, he has to remain a full time student to stay under our insurance. I don't see him being able to go to college full time. Do we apply for Medicaid for him????

Thanks for any help and suggestions.

Kim Murphy


  • Firstly I want to say sorry your young son is suffering so much.

    You gut instict here is mine too. I have "? nerve damage" and no-one will do nerve studies yet as it is too soon and I may be making a slow recovery so the tests can give a false result. Makes sense to me so I am happy to wait.

    What surgery did your son have?

    Fusion surgery can take up to 12 months to recover. I have had 3x operations now and can say that following each, I did have nerve irritaion, burning, pain, worse at night, restless legs. This is due to retraction of the nerves during the surgery itself.

    Regards scar tissue and inflammation, I would suggest ( but I am not a doctor) that a degree of scar formation is normal (see the section on scar tissue on this site) and whether it is big enough to be causing your son problems only the doctors know.

    Post trauma (surgery) inflammation, again to a certain extent, think about what they have done and it will take a good few months to settle, just like any other soft tissue injury.

    If he is back at school already he is doing really well and if he can only manage half days so be it.
    He only has one spine and hopefully, once he recovers from this he can live a pretty normal life.
    I had a very bad ability to sit, my back hurt so bad and so did my coccyx. Special chairs, tall stools may help.

    Nerve pain can take ages to settle, even after the cause has been addressed. I am 6 months post surgery and still have huge issues with the nerve although the cause has been dealt with. Waiting game, sadly.

    Can you go for a second opinion?

    Good Luck.
  • Sorry that your son is in so much pain. Sometimes caretakers have a hard time witnessing their loved ones dealing with so much pain. Like the above thread, I can't say that the nerve is damaged, but if he had surgery the sciatic nerve was probably compressed by a bulging or rupture disc.

    I, too, had surgery(microdiscectomy) about 12 days ago and still experiencing pain. The first week was fine, but the old pain has returned, from the buttocks and down to the ankle. I have been told by people on the forum and read other threads about the recovery time for nerve to heal. I have concluded that it can takes a lot longer than expected.

    You say his pain has gotten worse. Worse than before surgery? That does make me worry, but please press on. Have the doctors figure what is wrong. I don't know about medicaid. I have heard that people with medicaid don't get the best service. Please talk to your insurance company and find out how much longer your son can stay on your insurance.

    You found the right forum. Great people here. You might want to post your thread on the surgery section to get more answers.
  • I feel bad for you as a mom because we would do anything to take the pain away from our kids! I have an 18 year old son and I know this pain you are describing so I know how miserable he is right now. My son attends college and you are right that your son will have a hard time attending school in his condition. If it was my son I would be sure he gets every test he can ASAP and get a 2nd opinion, I know you have to go by ins rules but insist to get this fixed so he can have a good quality of life, he has a good chance of a future w/o pain if you don't let it go too long.

    I didn't get relief after my 1st surgery over 3 years ago. They told me the nerves had to heal as I had a bad situation prior to emergency surgery so I had PT, waited for the nerves to heal,more epidurals, limped and compromised my life with severe pain, after a few more MRI's my Dr. mentioned a fusion in my future but suggested I wait until longer if I could.....long story short, I waited too long and then I had no choices left. I had the fusion and finally the pain is better! It still takes time for the nerves to heal, especially after so long, but I wish I had done this sooner and my Dr. admitted he probably should have done this beforehand. However, I am much older than your son and had many more problems so you can't compare my results with him.

    We can't give you medical advice, just help you with support and experience we've had. If it were me I'd tell the Dr.you are fighting for your son, the best results for his future, whatever it takes to get him back in life because he is too young to live like this! Explain you want him to run any and every test to find the best solution, get other opinions and then decide what is the best treatment for your son. One persons surgery might be fixed with epidurals or a less invasive surgery, everyone is different.

    Good luck and let us know how your son is doing.
  • Thank you so much for the replies. It is just nice to talk with others about this. I have been worried sick and can't sleep at night because I'm so worried about him.

    He had a laminectomy / diskectomy L5 S1 the first week in January. I know that the doctor removed the bulging part of the disc and shaved down some bone. She is known to be more conservative in her approach.

    He is worse now than before surgery. Last March he only had hamstring pain, and his situation gradually worsened since then. We opted for surgery when I found he couldn't walk far without great pain and started to have difficulties getting in the car.

    Surgery didn't interrupt his worsening (he did not have any relief after surgery). Nor was he dramatically worse after surgery. He's just continuing on a decline.

    I suppose that is why I'm so concerned about nerve damage. I wonder if he should have had surgery sooner than he did. From what I read that could be why he surgery might be unsuccessful. I think we should have seen some improvement by now.

    His physical therapist said that his gait is worse now as well. Before the surgery he was walking flat footed, that is still the same but now he is also lifting his hip when he walks. I asked her if he had "drop foot" and she said "not yet." She also said that he now has a lot of weakness in his ankle that he did not have before.

    Thank you again. I know that I am going to have to learn everything I can to make sure he is getting all the treatment he needs.

    Kim, Brandon's Mom
  • sorry about your lad {and if he want yo talk to me anytime i will be happy to talk to him via here or email or MSN or face-book}
    back to the back
    i had my last operation nov 07 and when i went to hospital with pain 2 months after my operation {because the pain was worse than before the op} they refused to MRI me because they would not be able to see anything because of surgical scaring and inflammation so i think that MRI ing you son was a bit too soon .did he have a laminectomy? any back surgery will take around 12 months to heal so expect pain for longer .my advice is to see you doctor and get suitable medication sorted out and make sure that he takes is {i have a teenager too and i know what they are like!}another good trick with lower back pain is an ice pack on the area that hurts also do you have a recliner in your home? they are very good to help to take the weight of his legs.also a memory foam topper for his bed {dont buy a new memory foam mattress as they are too hard and overpriced and very hard to get off in the morning {we have an electrically adjustable bed }its a real help .an good TENS machine will help too.i am surprised that he can go to school as sciatic pain is unbearable there should have been a brake in pain down his leg and i will put it to you that maybe there is so much swelling in his spine from the surgery that the swelling is causing the pain so again keep using the ice .if you see no improvement within the next 12 weeks then its a trip to your neurosurgeons office .there is another possibility that the L5 or S1 nerve root has been permanently damage prior to surgery and there is not much that can be done about that
    my L5 nerve root is permanently damage and i live off oxycodone and walk about with an acticare unit on my back all the time .i hope things improve but be prepared for a long schlep!!
  • :H :H good luck and god speed . i have had sciatica for three years and i have seen no help in sight, but there is hope as i have seen others that have recovered fully w/no pain at all overnight. just keep doing the best you can and try to stay positive , and the lad too. he is way too young to have all this . i have had a lot of cat scans,epidurals,pt,and a mylogram , but the real identifier in my situation was a discogram that showed everything and the docs waited for yrs. before doing this. it might be something for this situation to discuss w/doc as i am not one.

    keep the faith
  • My son is going in a week to have some test done. He is having a CT Scan, EMG, and X-ray. Hopefully it will be good news, but in any case it will be nice to have some answers. I will keep you all posted and thank you again for the responses.
  • I was quite surprised when you said that the PT said "not yet" when you asked if he had it. In my case I developed it straight after surgery. Problems lifting my feet off the ground, over compensating with the hip. I now use a leg brace as it was initialy labelled as temporary & all part of the heeling process! if it hasn't improved soon get a second opinion - I will now have to wear this brace full time for the duration unless I can get onto a trial here in the UK for a nerve stimulator & so far I think there are only two places in the whole country that are doing them! In your sons case things might well get better over a period of time I was told that nerve damage can take upto 12 months to heal but once you ahve crossed the 12 month mark then it is considered to be permenant. Good luck with things & don't give up !!!!
  • Good luck next week! I hope you find answers with a good treatment plan for your son.
  • My son doesn't have "foot drop" but he does have weakness in his ankle and he is walking flat footed. He is 2 1/2 months post op (I wrote original post in this thread).

    Anyhow, I'm wondering about his leg weakness. When he's sitting down, he cannot lift up his leg (knee up). Same as when he's standing, he cannot lift his knee to chest. He can lift it enough to get up the stairs, so that is good.

    He does not want to trade bedrooms with his sister so that he could avoid stairs altogether. Maybe if things get bad enough he will. He does have pain going up and down the stairs but he says he'd rather tough it out than trade bedrooms! I just hope that him doing stairs isn't causing any harm. Is that something I should be concerned of?

  • This would be a good question to ask his doctor, but I think it is unlikely that he will cause further damage. The problems he is experiencing are from the nerve being compressed in the lower lumbar area, not from any stretching of the nerve in the leg itself.

    Walking is almost always recommended regardless of the patient's back injury, and, in fact, aids in recovery. I wouldn't recommend a stairmaster or stepper machine, but a staircase taken slowly and carefully should not be a problem.
  • Thanks, Gwennie. He already had surgery, so there shouldn't be anything compressing the nerve. But, that is why they are doing more tests next Wednesday. I am so relieved that they are doing tests. We should have the results next Friday and I we will have an opportunity to speak with the doctor.

    We also have an Ab Lounge and I read that it is a gentle way to build up the ab muscles and is good for people with back problems. He can only do 5 sit ups on it because of the pain. That's another thing I'm going to ask his doctor... if he should go ahead and do what he can tolerate.

    I guess I don't want him to exert himself and make his situation worse, but then I'm afraid that if he doesn't do anything... that would make him worse too!
  • I knew that. I guess I forgot! I would be careful with the ab stuff. He very well may have reherniated or ruptured the same disc or one adjoining it and you don't want to make the situation worse. Walking is the safest and most beneficial exercise for now.
  • Hi Kim,

    I'm sorry to hear about everything your son is going through. What type of surgery has he had? If he has not had a fusion yet, I'd suggest you look into Vax-D (spinal decompression therapy) for him. It's painless and non-surgical, and the success rates are amazing.

    I hope everything works out for him, and perhaps this will be a good option!
  • I know just how he feels. My pain also did not start in my back and I was shocked when I had a herniated disc. In my case, I delayed medical treatment only 4 months, and even after 3 surgeries (in 12 months!), I was left with permanent S1 nerve damage.

    From your description of what hurts him, my guess is his problem nerve is S1. I had to stay reclined 23 hours a day to get any relief. If I got up and walked, stood, bent over, twisted (dishwasher), lifted anything - FLARE!! A flare I couldn't calm down.

    My saving grace was the EMG and nerve conduction studies, because it proved to my docs that I had acute and chronic S1 nerve damage. At that point, they offered me the spinal cord stimulator or an implanted pain pump as my only 2 options. Keep in mind, my problems started in Aug. 2005, first surgery by Dec. 2005, all surgeries done by Dec. 2006, and continued horrid pain since then.

    The further your son's pain travels down his leg to his foot, the WORSE it is getting. So anything he can do to rest and stay off of it until you find out more, would be ideal.

    This pain from 24/7 nerve burning is excruciating. I am so sorry he is experiencing this. I am upset he was blown off as having a hamstring injury. Had he been properly evaluated, and told he had a herniated disc, he would have recovered entirely differently I would imagine.

    No one knows how long it takes to have permanent nerve damage. For me, 4 months. For others, they can ignore their problems for years, have surgery, and their nerves heal. It just really depends on the person and the injury.

    Your EMG should truly help the docs with this. I will pray that it does!

  • Hi VLK,

    My son had a diskectomy and laminectomy. I do not know if anything was "micro" or not. He incision looks to be about 2-3 inches long.

    We are leaving in just 25 minutes for his test. He is having an EMG, CT Scan and X Ray. We are hoping to meet with his doctor on Friday if all the test results are in.

    I guess I am to the point where I just want to know what is going on so I can help him plan his future.

    I will look into the Vax-D, but is it for when surgery is already done? Does it work for nerve damage, or scar tissue?

    I have a feeling I have a lot to learn! Lots of reading in my future, I'm sure!!


  • Hi Cherish,

    Thank you for your reply. We have just returned from him having the tests done. The EMG doc said that the EMG indicates a pinched nerve. Well, I assume we know that isn't the case because he had an MRI with dye a few weeks ago (month after surgery) and that did not show a reherniation. So, I am assuming that he has nerve damage. He said that he could not feel the "shocks" at all down his left let. He could feel them on his right leg.

    I'm wondering if he can't feel the shocks even down by his ankle, does that indicate that the nerve damage would be more extensive?

    Hopefully we will get to meet with the doctor on Friday to find out for sure and how bad it is. Maybe it is just mild nerve damage that might still heal over time.



  • I had the same problem. L5 S1 Micro. surgery done and still had pain. Doc insisted that it was scare tissue from second MRI and needed time to heal as scare tissue reseads over time. I started PT but also stopped taking my pain meds in fear of addiction but continued to complain about the pain.
    Then after three months the pain got so bad I started all my pain meds back up, I stop going to work, and insisted to the doc something still was not right! He finally ordered a EMG and when I went for that test they told me the nerve was still pinched. The doc who tested me told me my Spine doc would probable need to correct by surgery.
    Well! This is where it gets interesting.
    When I went back to the doc and told him what the EMG doc said the doc then said he would review the results. After another week I get a call from my spine doc and he told me he needs to open me back up and see what he can find wrong.
    Well, they did! He went back in and said he found a few small bone pcs. but nothing that would cause the pain I had. Then just as he was about done he said he found 1 huge pcs. That finally made its way to the nerve point. And that is what finally put me out of commission.
    Well, now I'm recovering for the second time.
    Don't let the doc tell you its scare tissue or that the nerve needs time to heal. If the emg showed still pinched and the pain continues to get worse I would insist the doc open your son back up and do Clean-up where the EMG showed the nerve to still be pinched. If a foreign object is rubbing against that nerve for a long time then he will have nerve damage.
    If I wouldn't of had the emg doc tell me my spine doc would probably need to repair me to correct I would still be out of commission on major pills. Because my doc would still want to see if the nerve needs time to heal.
    If you don't feel relief after Mirco surgery there is something still wrong. Exspecially if the pain is getting worse.

  • dilaurodilauro ConnecticutPosts: 9,877
    Your situation was your situation, that does not make it the same for others. Scar tissue can cause many different problems, some which can be life long. Nerve problems can take a very long time to heal and some never do.
    I would never tell the doctors what to do. Telling him to open your back up again is something that the doctors need to determine. There are enough tests that can determine what is going on.
    Ron DiLauro Spine-Health System Administrator
    I am not a medical professional. I comment on personal experiences
    You can email me at: rdilauro@veritashealth.com
  • If the EMG shows pinched nerve, but that was already corrected (surgery), then would I be right to assume that the EMG is showing nerve damage? My son did not feel any shocks at all down his left leg. How significant is that?


  • dilaurodilauro ConnecticutPosts: 9,877
    for sure, but the complete analysis of the EMG is what really should tell the story.
    IF the surgery did in fact correct the Pinched nerve, how was that determined?
    Just that there are several variables at play here, I would not want to steer you into one direction or the other.
    Discuss this with the surgeon to understand what they are seeing after the surgery and the EMG results.
    That is your safest route to take right now.
    Ron DiLauro Spine-Health System Administrator
    I am not a medical professional. I comment on personal experiences
    You can email me at: rdilauro@veritashealth.com
  • Thank you, I will do that. And, I can also inquire as to the possibility of bone fragments that could still be in there.

    Right now, his muscle weakness is worsening, I'm thinking possibly due to any nerve damage there is. His left calf looks thinner than the right, and of course his gait is affected.

    Hopefully the doctor did successfully take care of the impingement so that no further nerve damage takes place (if that's it).

    I do like that his neuro-surgeon also did a CT Scan and X ray, in addition to the MRI with dye a few weeks ago. It appears that she's taking his condition seriously and is being thorough.
  • I know everyones situation is different.
    I just wanted to share my experience so others with same type of problem don't rule out what happen to me.
    What bothers me is that she said the pain continues to get worse! She also said the second EMG is showing pinched. The emg test uses a scale to determine if there is nerve damage. That doc should beable to tell if there is damage by a certain percentage they formulate.
    If they tell you he is on the border between possible damaged or not damaged.
    I would think there is something still in there. Scare tissue or objects. Docs can also clean up scare tissue. To help the nerve glid better. Which they also did for me.

    I would also like to add before any of my surgeries I had 3 different opinions. Every doc I went to said there is a 20% chance of what happen to me can happen to anyone. So it's more common then one might think. Doc's just don't want to do x2 unless it's the last resort.

    EMG's don't lie! If they say there is something wrong then there is! Scare tissue or not if the EMG sounds off, a problem is still there!

    Nerve damage is another story. All I'm saying if the docs are telling her only time will tell and second emg is positve for nero tension or nerve damage. I would think twice about just sitting back and waiting for what the doc says might just be a healing issue.

  • dilaurodilauro ConnecticutPosts: 9,877
    on the person performing the tests and the equipment being used. Since this can vary, the results of EMGs can also vary. Hopefully, the results of an EMG will prove something that the doctor is looking for. When the results are not conclusive, the doctor needs to look at additional tests.
    Ron DiLauro Spine-Health System Administrator
    I am not a medical professional. I comment on personal experiences
    You can email me at: rdilauro@veritashealth.com
  • I agree, Lets hope the EMG tells all.
    As a side note: My right leg areas decreased in size after surgery also. I was told it was caused by me constently over compensating on the left leg. Which caused the right leg to weaken.If he continues to have pain in the right leg he might be doing the same thing and not even realizing it. PT has started to help that.

    I was told and don't know how true it is but. If you take a nerve pain med like Lyrica and the pain decreases then the pain is caused by nerve being ticked off and is healing.
    If you take a nerve med and doesn't help the nerve is being interfered with.

    I commend you in helping your son! Please remember mentally over coming life changing conditions is very tough. He will need your support there to just as much as trying to find his solution.
    God bless.
  • Thank you everyone for the replies as I am learning a lot!

    The neuro-surgeon called as she got all the test results in. She said that the CT Scan and X ray both looked fine. She said that the EMG showed mild irritation. She said that the EMG doctor said his left leg is NOT weaker and that if he can't lift it up, it is because of pain. She went on to say that she didn't think another surgery would help him since the CT Scan and X ray did not show any impingement. She said that there is NO NERVE DAMAGE!!! So, that is good news. She said that she though he was sensitive to pain where other people would tough it out.

    But, I am puzzled by some of this. I'm puzzled because he had no feeling down his left leg when the did the shocks during the EMG. I am also puzzled because his left leg is obviously weaker and thinner than his right leg. My son said that the EMG doctor had him go up on his toes and walk, and lift his leg from a laying down position (which of course hurt).

    I reminded the neuro-surgeon about the PT report showing marked weakness and abnormal gait, but the neuro completely dismissed it.

    The neuro then stated that after surgery my son had sciatica pain only in his buttock and then it traveled down, but that is not true. The pain was there after surgery just like before.

    I want to be relieved that there is no nerve damage, but something doesn't seem right here. I have this gut feeling that his pain should not be blamed on just scar tissue. Could it be that the neuro-surgeon just doesn't want to admit that the surgery was a failed surgery???

    I think I had better work on getting copies of all the reports and tests and so forth. This message board just might be my new best friend. :)


  • It's ok to see other doctors. You don't have to take what this one said as set in stone. Seek other opinions from maybe a Ortho instead. I would ask what others say.

    Here is a question for your son.. Is there times when the pain almost feels like a jolt or shock type twinge? Or is his pain more like a normal hurting pain.

    Example: if he roles over in bed is there times where even though it's painful does he get a jolt type pain down the low back and leg. Or if he bends a certain way does he produce that same jolt pain. The jolt pain I refer to is a different pain then what he feels in his butt or calf. This is bend over tears type pain that only last a second or two then back to normal pain.

    I ask because that extra jolt is what happen to me. It felt like the nerve would get hung up either by scare tissue or bone then snap when it was able to freely move. Like a rubber band. Which to me is what caused that bad sentation.
    Now after my 2nd. I don't get that jolt pain anymore. So for me there was a difference when I had the bone pcs. and extra scare tissue involved.

  • My son's herniation was at L4 L5. I don't know why I thought it was at L5 S1. Well, I know nobody on here can diagnose or anything. But, of course, thoughts and opinions, along with the experiences of others help to educate us all! So, please share any thoughts you may have! Thanks. :)


    Here are the results of the EMG from yesterday:

    1. Abnormal EMG/nerve conduction velocity study of lower extremities consistent with mild irritation to the left L5 nerve root (left L5 radiculopathy).
    2. There was no evidence for peripheral or proximal neuropathy at this time.


    He had an MRI with & without dye on February 2nd (6 weeks ago). This was one month after his surgery. Here are the results:

    1. Abnormal study revealing extensive enhancing postoperative scar formation from recent surgical intervention at the L4-5 level, left paracentral hemilaminectomy region. Scar abuts the lateral posterior aspect of the thecal sac and slightly anteriorly. Central residual or recurrent disc herniation, small in size is present. The balance of the spine is unremarkable.


    An MRI he had before surgery also noted: There is intervertebral disc space narrowing noted at L4-5 and L5-S1.


  • Let me know if you know what any of this means! I don't know if it's bad... not that bad... a big deal, not a big deal... a sign of worse to come, etc. Thank you so much.

    Here is my son's Physical Therapy report from March 11, 2009:

    S: Patient reports that his pain is the same. He feels like he has got shin splints and pointing to lower anterior compartment of his lower extremities. Patient states it is a poking sensation and describing like pins and needles in back part of his left thigh and going from midthigh to calf area, more superior calf. Patient states that if he moves his back a certain way he feels weird. He is unable to lift his foot off the ground by himself. Patient describes it as an uncomfortable sensation, and he states that he is starting to walk funny. Every now and then he gets a jumping sensation in his posterior thigh.

    Patient reassessed as follows: Left knee extension: Negative 30 degrees and having pain. Active-assistive: Negative 20 degrees of motion. Passive range of motion: Negative 10 degrees of motion. Knee flexion: 120 degrees of motion. Patient is painful with left hip flexion, both active and passive and less than 5 degrees of motion for active to approximately 10 degrees for passive range of motion for left knee flexion and pain, and patient having weakness even for left ankle joint. Dorsiflexion, plantarflexion, inversion/eversion: 3+. Straight leg raises: Positive, between 30-70 degrees of motion. Patient's strength for left hip abduction: 3 to 3+. Adduction patient is unable to perform against gravity, and patient initiating strength in a sitting position and barely lifting leg off mat for extension on the left and the right very weak mid range. Prone knee flexion on the right: 4-; left 3 to 3+. Prone knee extension: 4- on the right; left 3 to 3+.

    GAIT: Patient ambulating with external rotation noted on right lower extremity, as well as left, and patient having leg drag with left lower extremity. Patient presenting with hip shift with the left side and trunk and no hip flexion on left lower extremity. Patient presenting with hip hiking on left and anterior shift on left side. Patient is having elicitation minimally with left hip abduction and lateral trunk moving to the right, and patient experiencing pain in left posterior thigh and midcalf area.

    A: Patient is having difficulty with participation with exercises. Patient is having difficulty with ambulation.
  • would be happier if your doctor was taking your son's current complaints/condition more seriously.

    I would be getting a 2nd and a 3rd opinion, quickly. Just for peace of mind. I wasn't told my nerve was pinched - was told I had permanent damage. Seems like a pinched nerve could possibly be fixed. It is also common to have MRI's and such that do NOT show problems but other tests do, such as the discogram, for example.

    I personally was told to go home and be patient, give my nerves time to heal, a centimeter a month. No matter what I said, no matter how much I complained, they blew me off. And now I have permanent damage. My excuse was that I was so worn out, so beaten down from 3 surgeries......I just couldn't put myself through more. Wish I had now.

    Good luck!

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