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Chronic pain and Work

JohnJJohn Posts: 964
edited 06/11/2012 - 8:19 AM in Chronic Pain
I am increasingly finding work problematic and as with most pain patients sustaining capacity is always difficult. I have spent many years attempting to return to the working environment and see the benefits that the isolation of surviving at home. I watched my life go by and used my downtime to accumulate and develop the best skills I had. The effort needed to sustain my job has increased the rest I need in comparison, it is not hard to recapture how it feels to be excluded from the workplace and the financial implication for my family. The majority of my capacity 80% is needed to continue working so the other element is divided between my active role and a parent father and husband.

My pain has never diminished and my walking is not good in time or distance, considering what we all endure we are doing well and I am questioning the sanity of driving myself to such an extent, we are all familiar with twice the effort for reduced results. I do rest and pace well and encouraged to continue with a developing strategy. We would all like more energy or capacity and I am realistic, I do have the best job ever and to some extent my chronic pain has slowed me down to just manic now, I live downstairs and recognising that even with experience we all need time to reflect and evaluate before continuing on our journey.

How is work going for you.



  • :) i cannot relate to a 9 to 5 job but i have "work" around my home daily. since i am disabled, it is my work to do my exercises, stretching and walking daily. it is my job to rest so my pain levels don't go off the charts. to keep severe depression from stopping me daily. i have daily work of making my bed, doing the trash, taking a shower ect... these "jobs" keep my day filled, give me a feeling of self worth and keep my pain at bay as much as possible. i do volunteer work as well. sometimes i wish i could get in a car (i cannot even drive) and go to work. then reality sinks in and i realize my limitations and that the work i have created here at home is the work i can do. i cannot beat myself up over not being part of the regular work force. instead i pat myself on the back for the "work" i do at home. keeping me and my family as happy and healthy as possible under the present conditions. pwehaps this is what you are really talking about. chronic pain is 24/7 "work." Jenny :)
  • It's hard being a spiney and I personally am partially disabled, as most are on here if not fully disabled...I have lost 2 jobs as a result of my injuries and limitations...It's also difficult as we have more doctors' appointments than normal people do, so we have to take off of work more which makes it difficult with employment as well. Not to mention those horrid flare-ups or my migraines that cause me to miss work. I work, but my symptoms definitely effect what I can get done and how well I can get it done without mistakes. In addition, sitting in the chair all day is no good either!

    But for me, there's no choice! I don't qualify for SS so I can't do that, yet when I lose a job I'm screwed because it takes me longer to find a job. I can't wait tables or bartend or any of those easy jobs to get into to make ends meet until I find another job. Then there's my prescription costs, which were $1000 this month, and that's well over half of what I make a month.

    I'm sorry your co-workers are being jerks. Most people don't seem to get it, especially as our symptoms are not outwardly visible. But like I said, I'd like to see the other lawyer or the insurance company people try to walk around for even a WEEK in my body...They'd go nuts!
  • dilaurodilauro ConnecticutPosts: 9,865
    Dealing with Chronic Pain is enough of a life time adventure, but to add holding down a job while dealing with chronic pain makes it that much more difficult.

    Defining jobs is wide open.
    - I think the folks that have to stay at home and do the day to day things have it even harder than those that have to go to work. And by that I mean the stay at home Mom's Those that stay home, really cant' call in sick, they have to do what needs to get done, the children need attention, their husbands need attention!! and much more

    - Now, for 20+ years while dealing with chronic pain, I commuted to work (1 hour each way) and then spent 8-10 hours by a computer all day. By the end of the day, I was useless as a person.
    - About 12 years ago, I starting working from home 1 day a week, then 8 years ago it became 2 days a week and for the past 6 years I have been working full time at home and have been to my office in Poughkeepsie , New York 5 times in those 6 years. That is the ONLY way I have been able to maintain my job as managing a data center and providing IT services to my function.

    Over the course of time, I had a lot of resentment from co-workers. They felt like I was privileged or something in the fact that I did not have to come into work every day.
    Privilege... you bet I am, thats what I told them, I would trade my spine in for any day to be at work 100% of the time.

    I have been very fortunate. My company has been very understanding. In the 34+ years I've been with them, I would say I have about a total of 5 years of out time due to surgeries, recoveries, flare ups, etc.

    Now, as my years in the company have gone by , I really have to look at my future. Even working from home hurts. Right now I am in a good deal of pain, because the past 3 days I've been working on a project that has demanded more time at the computer.

    My doctor knows it, my Physical Therapists knows it, my Deep Tissue massage therapist knows it. The more I continue to work on the computer, the more problems I will have. Its almost like I am throwing money to all of them for nothing. They help me and I wind up only hurting myself doing the job I do.

    But I do love what I do!

    There is a happy medium and I am working towards that.

    There is not any situation , any place that when you dig into it , that you will not find a solution that is good for everyone. That is my goal and I will reach it without a doubt.
    Ron DiLauro Spine-Health System Administrator
    I am not a medical professional. I comment on personal experiences
    You can email me at: rdilauro@veritashealth.com
  • Ron, and with all of that you are doing double time here on the new forum! is it time to slow down and smell the herbs? lol! you are a smart man and when the time is right you will act accordingly. don't overdo too much! you know how that added stress can increase your pain levels. i am rooting for you! Jenny :)
  • As a person who was always healthy, I can say I'm sure I have not been as understanding of people with chronic pain or back problems in the past. I know someone who always complained of back pain, needed special cushions to sit on when we went places, always needed shots, etc. I would get frustrated at her slower pace and say to myself "she can't do it because of her back!" Well, GUESS WHAT HAPPENED?? I believe that God has a lesson for me to learn from my cervical problems, and that lesson has been to be MORE COMPASSIONATE! So,sometimes it takes a "knock on the head" for people to be understanding of the battles faced by people with pain. The folks that don't understand just don't know how luck they are right now---Mazy
  • i have had 2 surgeries the last year, laminectomy in 07 and a fusion in 08. i missed the last 2 months of work, teach high school, both years. the one thing i have noticed is that most people don't seem to care. in fact some teachers were not aware that i was out. some think i am not a team player because i did not finish my job eventhough a note from my dr stated i needed surgery because of pain and possible permanent problems. yes some co-workers can be jerks. there are a couple who are compassionate and understanding. i went there last month to get stuff from m;y room due to summer school and you would have thought i was going to contaminate everyone. apparently i could not go on campus due to legal matters that if i got hurt, the school would be responsible. i am gearing myself for a year of people treating me like the plague. but i guess that is human nature.i have already gotten messages stating that i let down the school for not finishing out the year.in fact one teacher stated that he thought i went out so i did not have to finish out my job, i could stay home take drugs and watch t.v.
    while the rest of the faculty did their jobs
    i can't wait for the start of the school year. thank god there are some who are supportive
    jon :jawdrop:
    I have 4 fusions from L5-3, the latest last May '12 where they fixed my disc that broke.They went through my side this time. I take 40 mg of oxycontin 4x a day and 4 fenatyl lollipops 300 micro gms 4x a day.
  • Good luck with your going back too wotk,i wish you the best when the new school year starts....
  • Working from home certainly has its advantages. I work from a home based office. I know that I would not be able to maintain working if I had to go to an office everyday. Somedays I work in my PJ's till noon.... ;)

    There are times that I wish I had an office away from home but at this point I am happy to be able to move my lap top around the house where I can be comfortable. I try to get out for sales calls a couple times a week now (it is my slow season).

    Good luck Jon.

  • thanks for the support. i am curious myself. schools are really a weird environment for the uninitiated. teachers are in a generalized way a very anal bunch of people. if i have insulted a teacher or too, this is what i feel. i teach special education high school and sp ed teachers are really anal.
    anyway sorry for the pontification. thanks again for the supportive statement
    I have 4 fusions from L5-3, the latest last May '12 where they fixed my disc that broke.They went through my side this time. I take 40 mg of oxycontin 4x a day and 4 fenatyl lollipops 300 micro gms 4x a day.
  • Well - I'd like the opportunity to find out about the isolation at home. That is because I MUST work, no matter how much pain I am in. My husband is very ill, and I can't lose his insurance. Now I need the insurance - though I don't know why, since no one will do a thing for me. While I do understand a feeling of being out of it by being at home, you perhaps don't realize that your life is changed everywhere. You can't go back, and as people have mentioned here, it's not the same at work any more. While I don't work with people who were ever much fun to work with anyway, I can't believe the hostility they have toward me because I was out with surgery and extra time on the sick leave pool. I'm no slacker, and I work rings around any of them, but no one will even help me to try to rearrange the files so I can use them. We have files on the floor level! I hurt myself every time I have to do that, and it lasts hours of greater pain. They have increased the physical requirements of my job, making sure I have to do things that I can't. I feel not just a lack of any kind of caring, but despised by these people. I'd give anything not to go there every day. I'm just saying that maybe you don't want the work experience after all, since there are unfortunately people out there who turn into monsters. I've had all kinds of insults, and I have been told that the reason they are all so unkind is because they think I am faking. It's quite horrible, and I'd rather go home and make my social contacts elsewhere and do what charitable work I could maybe do when I was feeling better.

    I can't get disability, because today I went to see my primary doctor, who was giving me a prescription for hydrocodone, which barely works. Today, he just ripped into me, and said he doesn't prescribe pain medicine, because he's just not in that business. He has referred me to a pain management doctor who is in my estimation a crook. He does nothing but injections, and does not prescribe any pain meds or do anything but the injections. I have to have $1,000 to show up, because my coinsurance is $200 per shot, and he plans to do several - before I have even seen him. We are in chapter 13 bankruptcy and on a terribly tight budget. I can do copays and generic meds, and that is it. When I told him again I don't have $1k to go see this guy, he said he doesn't want to hear me nickel and dime him to death. Well, to Mr. Fishing-trips-around-the-world, $1k is his bar tab one night. For me, it's my month's net pay. So now I have no one to prescribe my medication, which is all that lets me stand the day at work, and I'm not standing it very well right now. He won't refill my prescription any more, and if I don't get $1k together and go have the magic shots that will totally cure me, I will not be able to work at all.

    What is sickening is that he asks me if I am working 40 hours. To him, that means I'm not in bad shape, or I wouldn't be working. Wow. That is like a punch in the stomach, because I am calling on everything I have every day to make it through that day. Lunch time I go home and lie down 20 minutes and take more meds, or I could not go back. Every day, I am wiping away tears because I have to drag myself up and go back for 4 more hours of torture. As we say - how I would love for people who make light of this to spend just one day in my body. He got back my x-rays that say my fusion is stable, so he was ready to light into me when I arrived. To him (ignorant), that means I am well. My fusion is stable in the x-ray, yet it is making loud noises. Nobody believes it, even while hearing it. I showed him that both legs' movement causes it, bending, twisting, whatever - and he kept trying to feel it in my hip joint. Duh!! They refuse to hear it- both the neuro (who dumped me because of it) and he do not want to hear, though I said you could put a stethoscope on my back and hear that it is coming from the surgery site. Nope - that would make them admit it was making noise. So here I am, with a neurosurgeon who pronounces me totally, magically well because of his surgery, and now a primary who thinks I am making it up now. Good chance for disability. I can't get a referral anywhere but to a crook from my primary, and my dumb insurance demands that he refers. Now when I change my primary, I'll be doctor-shopping or drug seeking. Ugh.

    Anyway, work is horrible in this condition, and I'd rather be home where I can lie down and feel better. Tomorrow is Friday - only one more day until I have two days off that I don't have to be in that much pain, and don't have to be around people who would not spit on me if I was on fire, just because this happened to me. Just another perspective, for those longing for work. Terror, I work at a university, in the college of education - they were all teachers before they worked there. Meanest bunch of people I've ever encountered, egomaniacs, jealous of everything (even my "vacation" of surgery and pain), and did I mention lazy as hell. I'm not, so it's not that I'm not pulling my load! No offense, as you said, because my best friend and my daughter in law are teachers and I love them and they are kind and wonderful. However, this is no coincidence that these folks share the same personality. I said it was no fun working there in the first place, because they have zero, zip, -0- sense of humor. I'd get out, but I'm a physical mess and no one would hire me. The university is the most handicapped-unfriendly place you could be, and HR is always in contact with my supervisor planning how to keep me from moving while building a file on me to try to get rid of me. Therefore, I do not speak, arrive early, leave late, do not make eye contact, and do not respond to their attempts to get a rise out of me. I have become in another way as mean as they are, because I can't help but wish every day for this to happen to them. That makes me mad, because now I probably get to go to hell for that! :) At this point, I can't help it.
  • I was off work from Dec 97 to Mar 03 because of my back. My spine doc declared me permanently and totally disabled from all occupations in 2000. But, due to personal and financial pressures, I returned to work AMA in 2003. I managed for 4 years (although looking back I'm not sure how) until my 2nd l5s1 fusion disintegrated. Now I've been off work for almost a year and had a 360 revision in November 07. I've talked with my doc about going back to work but so far he's not releasing me and since he said that this was my last shot at a surgical fix for my lumbar spine, I'm not going to push it. My husband still tends to think that I'm sitting home watching soaps and eating bon bons but I know that retiring at 43 because of a disability is not exactly what I had planned for my life! I loved my job and I liked the money I was making. I'm waiting right now for my disability to be approved and even though disability income is pitiful, it's better than nothing. It sure doesn't compare with a FT paycheck though. My director and my employees don't understand why I'm not back at work yet either. Part of me thinks I should be able to just "suck it up" and go back to work like I did last time and another part of me is terrified of what I might end up doing to my spine if I did. So, here I sit. I don't like the isolation but what choice do you have?

    The system really sucks though. You can't get disability if you're working (whether you should be working or not) and you can't afford to not work if you can't get disability. You can barely afford to not work even if you DO get disability.

    If my doc told me tomorrow that I could return to work, I'd be scared to death because I'm not good at pacing myself. It's always got to be at least 110%. And I have trouble knowing when to stop. Even now at home, I'm really bad about pushing myself until the pain just knocks me down. Then it is just that much harder to get back up again.
  • I have been out on short term disability since mid-May. I need to get back to work sometime before November as that is when I would begin to receive only half my pay as full-time disabled. As of right now I am receiving full pay due to the plan I choose and paid to upgrade if I was ever need the short-term. I was not smart enough to elect the full 100% pay for long-term as I did not have a crystal ball to know this would happen half way through the year. I am in physical therapy and listed below in my signature is what I am currently suffering from. I cannot sit for longer than an hour or my lower back and neck go from a constant pain of 2 to an 8. My family doctor and orthorpedic doctor are great and I am scheduled for a new MRI on lumbar Monday and injections to my neck sometime in the next week. I feel my boss is getting upset that I am still out, some people just do not understand the pain we are in and that if we could we would rather be at work than stuck home in our pain and solitude. Can you tell me why you are not able to get SSI? I feel I may be headed there if the pain does not get any better with the PT and the injections :( . Good luck to you and I know you are doing all you can, try and keep a positive attitude :D it is really the only thing keeping me going right now!
  • I guess as witnessed by everyone's posts so far that it really does depend alot on the type of job and the employer.

    The reason I say that, is because it seems that all of us will push ourselves and drag ourselves beyond the point we ever should. The reasons that we do that vary, but bottom line I believe we all will, would and do.

    I have just recently had to swallow the pill of giving up a job that I love in order to keep from destroying all the hard work my docs are doing for me. Like Ron says:
    dilauro said:
    My doctor knows it, my Physical Therapists knows it, my Deep Tissue massage therapist knows it. The more I continue to work on the computer, the more problems I will have. Its almost like I am throwing money to all of them for nothing. They help me and I wind up only hurting myself doing the job I do.

    My docs all knew that they were battling against my job as well as my body. The job just complicated everything for them. I just wasn't willing to give up or give in. I was able to do the job well, however by the time I made it home I was a wreck and spent a couple hours trying to get the pain under control enough to go to bed so that I could get up the next morning and repeat the same thing all over again.

    Anyway, I finally realized that I'm never going to be able to break that cycle and have any life if I continued to work that job. So on Monday I quit the job and walked away from something I love to do.

    My docs all celebrated and smiled bigger than I could have ever imagined. My husband realized what it was doing to me and him and is happy with the decision too. I'm still a bundle of nerves inside, although I do know in my heart of hearts that it was the right thing to do.

  • I have lived most of my adult life on disability and in opposition to public opinion it is not a lifestyle that could be recommended, in one way you feel some responsibility to yourself to be able to do more when in reality this is not possible. I do feel pushed to the periphery of society that the financial acumen brings and isolated from a growing and expansive list of opportunities. The diversity of need encompasses many and as a group we are tarnished by association by those who have been assessed of being needy irrespective of capability, almost a second class citizen.

    This is not a lifestyle of my choosing and I am doing the very best every day, no able-bodied person would be asked to endure these associated symptoms and expected to carry on as if nothing was happening and derided for not being as ill, with a nod and wink.

    The state are supporting me and my family and I will be for ever grateful, If I live like a king I want the dignity of having worked hard through my effort and endeavour, to stand up, (metaphorically) and be a man. To show by example in how to present those qualities in an equal and supportive environment.

    As has been said on this thread the work ethos takes many forms, from homemaker to improving careers and all are equally valid, disability support has enabled my to enter the workplace on a more even playing field, I am not looking for preferential treatment, just parity of opportunity.

    Take care, whatever you are doing. John

  • I am so glad to hear from you. Please read my PM that I sent you.
  • Can't get SSI as I'm not fully disabled, I'm able to do light duty work, but when you're unemployed which thankfully I am not at the moment it's hard to find some one that will take you on...Luckily I haven't had too many doctors' appointments lately! And my meds are through the roof! I just applied for Medicaid as my prescriptions are at least $1000 per month! That's well over half of my salary and I can't afford that much so hopefully I'll be approved...And as my trial isn't fully finished but there was a verdict, my lawyer technically can't pay for my doctors' appointments or medications or things I need like an ESI at the moment! And I can't pull $3000 out of my butt until I get the full settlement assuming they don't appeal! I'm praying that they don't appeal, but who knows...I don't get the final and complete verdict until August 14th and they have 30 days after that to either pay or appeal...I know they don't want to pay but I hope they don't put me through the hell of an appeal, which they'd lose anyways! I HATE INSURANCE COMPANIES, ie, PROGRESSIVE!!!!

  • I sent you a PM, I hope you got it...I did the doctor w/o pain meds and it didn't work so well for me so I switched.
  • And yet, I am finding myself unable to concentrate at work. I manage an apartment community and have over 800 residents to look after and answer to. As of late I am finding it increasingly harder and harder to be the support that I need to be for my staff and residents. I find that the higher up the chain you go, the more support you should be offering. I love to serve because I serve in love has been my mantra in the past, but as of late the pain is so severe and I am not finding much love in it.

    Add to that that I feel guilty about any time that I am away from the office. I try to schedule my appointments for before or after the office opens but that is not always the case. Granted there have been times in the past that I have worked 70 hours a week average. Now is not one of those times and I am having a hard time dealing with it. Just the other day when I was having a coaching session with a difficult employee and my regional manager, the employee brought up the fact that I have been in therapy (or unavailable lately). I was quick to point out that this was irrelevant and untrue, but still it was mentioned to my corporate office.

    Ask me today if I will be here in two months, and I cannot say for sure one way or another. My drive to thrive in the office environment has diminished and my staff deserve to have a strong leader.
  • And why DO we work so hard to prove ourselves to our bosses and co-workers? I do it too. I am probably one of the hardest working and most reliable people in my company. Yet, I have PT twice a week, so I'm an hour late 2 days (of course they forget that I come in 1/2 hr early the other 3 days). I have Dr's appointments, I've been allowed to work from home a few days when my pain has me sitting in my cubicle in tears. But, my pain is not visible. So THIS is what my co-workers talk about. She's out AGAIN...working from home AGAIN...at a a doctors appointment AGAIN...Maybe I should by some fake blood??? Thursday I meet with the NS and I'll probably be scheduled for surgery. Imagine the exaspiration then!! I already had surgery once this year. The nerve!!
    I overheard the whispers one day and I flat out said in the middle of the office "If anyone wants to go have the procedure in THEIR spine that I'm having, in my place, I'd be happy to come in, in their place." The silence was deafening.
  • I also worked in community management but it was a section8/tax credit property. That whole industry seems to have a lot of faithful, hardworking and dedicated employees. Do the people in corporate ever, ever notice? I do not think so. Do they ever appreciate? I do not think so. Do the regionals seem to be famous for taking credit for their managers accomplishments? Why, yes they do. My experience has been that property management companies in general are a bunch of backstabbing, arrogant ***holes? And, I do not make my opinion from one company, Iknow several people in the business all at different companies and they all seem the same.
  • The day is short, the night is long, why do we work so hard to get what we don't even want? Ultimate question indeed.

    Phxchele-ignorance is scary. People fear what they don't know, and respond from there. Just smile at them.

    Pain-In response to your experiences with corporate level property management companies, I mostly agree. I have had a few individuals who have been great. My regional now happens to be a real person and not a corporate machine. I am blessed for that reason if no other at work.

    One Love,

  • Ignorance is scary and unfortunately too, everyone seems to be lumped together. We have a couple of people who take advantage of the "working from home" system and call in sick almost every week and brag about it. So I get associated with that.
    "One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch girl....." - Jackson 5 :)
  • That was the osmonds who sang that song...
  • Actually you are both correct. Although it was the Osmonds who brought the song to #1 on the charts in 1971.

    The song was originally written for the Jackson 5 and eventually was sang by them, but it was the Osmonds who brought it to fame.
  • That is one field of work I will never venture back in to. I loved the residents and being able to help needy people but it was way not worth the rest. You are very lucky to have a human regional.
  • It is a definately a love/hate relationship.
  • Can I just say thank you Ron, for acknowledging stay at home mothers!!! Being one myself, I can say that this type of acknowledgment comes few and far between. My own friends will backhandedly comment on how wonderfully boring it must be for me to sit around all day and watch tv. GRRRRRRR

    Most people do not understand, that staying at home with children IS A JOB. And its not a 9-5 type of thing. Its 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. period. I do not get days off. I don't get holidays. I don't get sick days, sick pay, or any pay for that matter.

    At the moment, I happen to be fortunate enough to stay home with my son, though money is getting a little too tight, and I am currently looking for a new job.

    With my pain issues, and the cost of child care, this is not an easy task. I will continue with my work story below... but had to make sure and thank you from the bottom of my heart!!!!

  • I cannot believe someone would say that to you. But then again, I have been in the same situations... at this point nothing should surprise me!

    I'm sorry for all of you, for all of us, who have to put up with the a-holes in the world.

    I think we will become better people ourselves, for having put up with and learned from these experiences!!

    What goes around comes around... Thank goodness we have eachother :)
  • It looks like everyone has had similar experiences. I have not worked since Nov 07 and won't be able to return till after the cervical bone spur is removed, I don't see the Consultant till 2nd Oct so guess I will be out for a while yet. I can't get a direct answer re returning to work in the future, so am in the no mans land, where no decisions can be taken.

    Interestingly I find the bigest let down for me is that a co-worker who has terrible spine problems is being quite negative at times, though when others are around she tries to appear supportive. I tend to feel I am stealing her thunder, perhaps she thinks I am taking too much attention.
  • I was actually "let go" for this same reason.

    I had a wonderful, well paying job, that I loved. To make my story as short as possible... here goes.

    I was assaulted at work, by my direct manager. He felt it appropriate to "spank" his employee's with a metal ruler. NO NO in my book!!!

    After he tried it with me, I reported him. He threatened to commit suicide, and therefore, was able to keep his job. They set up a new office, 5 miles down the road, so that he could still work there, without being in direct contact with me. However, he ultimately was still in charge with a lot of my duties, which meant he had total control of how he delegated those duties, and managed to do it daily with spite. He did anything to make life harder for me.

    After the assault, I became severely depressed, and suffered major anxiety attacks. At the urging of the bosses, I started seeing a therapist.

    Problem was, I had to make my appointments during work hours, and was missing work for therapy once a week.

    On top of that, I suffered frequent migraines, and was undergoing many tests to figure out why. Needless to say, I was missing a lot of work.

    I have always been very dedicated and hard working, and never called in sick. On days when I needed to leave for appointments, I came in early, or I would come back and work late. I always managed to put in my 40 hours a week, but co-workers didn't care to see that. They only saw that I was gone again.

    After one final blow up with the "spanker" I was taken into a meeting where I was told that there had been numerous complaints about me missing work. I was no longer the "cheerful, smiley girl" that they had hired. It would be better if we went our separate ways.

    I was literally crushed. I felt like a kid who just got dumped by a boyfriend. I left there, but challenged them to find another person who could do my work as fast and accurate as I could, without any overtime... I know it couldn't be done. I gave that company my whole self... and they turned there back on me.

    On a lighter note, co-worker that they used to replace me... went to lunch one day, and never came back. Oh yeah, she also had over $10,000 company cash in her pocket... guess they got theirs lol
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